#93 Dr. Michael Greger | How Not to Age & How Not to Die: Unlock Longevity with Nutrition Insights

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

00:00 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
So today we're together with Dr Michael Greger, and he is a fantastic man. We hope you will enjoy the interview with him. He is, as you probably know, the author of the book how Not to Die and also the book how Not to Age. One of the things that makes him super cool is that he is kind enough to want to be on a lot of podcasts and share a lot of his knowledge with the world. He also has nutritionfactsorg, which I think you should go check out, and a wonderful app called the Daily Dozen. But the thing is, he says yes to do all of the podcasts he can think about, among others, ours, but he only gives us half an hour. So we were in such a rush that I forgot to introduce him. So, therefore, this little extra recording and now on with the interview. First of all, we wanted to welcome you to our podcast. Thank you for sharing your time with us. 

00:57 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
I'm happy to be here. Let's do this. 

01:00 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah. So first of all, thank you for your books and I know my wife has. She read the how Not to Die some years ago and I could feel the change in our diet. I have been shorter time on this process than she has. 

01:18 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
More woman Took your book to convince him, not me. 

01:22 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yes, but I just upped my, you know, I was like, okay, the turmeric, should I try it? And I started trying it and I have had some trouble with the knees, with some inflammation and three days in I was like this is weird, it worked. So thanks for that. 

01:43 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
What a concept. I know Foods work, work. I know it's amazing. 

01:51 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
yeah, you don't know, do you give it a try? Yeah, so what? What led you down the path of starting writing all your books and sharing the knowledge in this way? Because you are giving all the knowledge you have on nutrition fact away and you're donating the income from your books away. So it's a great gift you're giving. But what made you do all this. 

02:13 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
It all really started with my grandma. Actually, I was just a kid when my grandma was diagnosed with end-stage heart disease and sent home in a wheelchair to die. Basically she already had so many bypass surgeries, basically run out of plumbing at some point, so confined to a wheelchair, crushing chest pain, her life was over at age 65. 

02:35 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Wow. 

02:36 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
But then she heard about this guy, nathan Pritikin, one of our early lifestyle medicine pioneers. And what happened next is actually detailed in Pritikin's biography. It talks about Francis Greger, my grandmother. They wheeled her in and she walked out. Though she was given a medical death sentence at age 65, thanks to a healthy diet, was able to enjoy another 31 years on this planet, until age 96, to continue to enjoy her six grandkids including me. So that's why I went into medicine, that's why I practiced lifestyle medicine, why kids including me. So that's why I went into medicine. That's why I practiced lifestyle medicine, why I started nutrition factsorg, why I wrote how not to die and all my books and why all the proceeds from all my books are donated directly to charity. I just want to do for everyone's family what pritikin did for my family wow, yeah, yeah thank you the 

03:23 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
light. Yeah, yeah, thank you, I started Wow. 

03:24 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, yeah. 

03:24 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, thank you. 

03:27 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I started. Some of my journey started last year after you probably know of Brian Johnson. I what tricked something in me or click something in me was his that he decided to fire evening brian. And I really like that concept because in the mornings I as well have like the strength, the stamina and I want to do all the healthy stuff, and then in the evening, oh, the snacks. Just looks at me and it gets um, it gets so much easier to to fall in with the, the comfort food. And I actually have a question about comfort food because I mean you are all into whole food, plant-based diets and I heard one of your recent podcasts where you also talk about what the deep frying of the potatoes do versus eating the same amount of fat and salt. 

04:26 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Oh right, yeah, interesting, yeah yeah. 

04:30 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
And, but then I'm like, oh, but sometimes I need that comfort food. What can we change? Have you any good suggestions for comfort food that is healthy still? 

04:40 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Well, the important thing I mean, as always, is treat the cause. It's like so why do you need the comfort food, right? Are you not sleeping enough? Are you stressed? Are you doing things in life that you don't ordinarily like? And that's kind of balancing it out and so making those decisions to be like wait a second, I am going to rearrange my life, I'm going to make decisions about my life that might make my life so amazing that I don't need to, you know, harm my health by going to some, you know, crappy food. 

05:12
Okay, so that would be number one, but oh, it's your holiday, special occasions, birthday, something you really want to treat yourself. Um, there's certainly, you know, healthier and less healthy options. The I mean, the bottom line is basically doesn't matter what you mean, your birthday's, holiday, special occasions is the day-to-day stuff that really adds up. And so, you know, basically do whatever you want, you know, but you know the. We all know what the healthiest foods are. 

05:38
We all know the least healthiest foods are, um, and you know, certainly quantity matters, right? Um, and so smoking one cigarette is different than smoking a pack of cigarettes, and so you know, we do our best. You don't beat yourself up, and if you get into some you know bad habit of, you know, then you just, you know, the next day just do better. And you know, and realizing that it doesn't really matter where you eat today, tomorrow, next week, but, like the next few decades, you have to find a way to eat that you enjoy and it's sustainable for the long term and the to get into the how not to age your latest book, then, to give you a daily dozens of what to eat for not age. 

06:26 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
What is your suggestion there? I know people should go read the book. I'm in the process of listening to it and it is 27 hours, together with your voice. 

06:38 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Oh, my God that was. It took me two weeks to record that book. Brutal, yeah yeah. So you know, the daily dozen checklist of all the healthiest, of healthy foods I encourage people to fit into their daily routine was something that started in how not to die right. The first half of the book is just 15 chapters and each of the 15 leading cause of death Talk about the world diet, maybe playing, preventing, arresting, reversing each of our top 15 killers. But I didn't want it to just be a reference book. I wanted it to be a practical, day-to-day grocery store kind of guide, and so that's really the second half of the book where I send my recommendations around this daily dozen checklist of healthy foods. 

07:17
So not just fruits and vegetables every day, but specifically berries, the healthiest fruits, dark green, leafy vegetables, the healthiest vegetables Talk about cruciferous vegetables. A tablespoon of ground flax seeds, a quarter teaspoon of turmeric. The best beverages, how much sweeteners, how much exercise to get. Again, just kind of as an aspirational, you know, attempt to fit some of the healthiest things into your daily routine. It's available as a free app iPhone, android Dr McGregory's daily, doesn't you? Just, you know, check through the list and, you know, see if you can do. You know how well you can do track your progress over time. 

07:52 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
yeah, well, I've been using a similar system, just pen and paper, actually, without. We have four children, uh-huh. So it's. My agenda is how do I get these habits into my children? And now they are older, they are teenagers. The oldest is actually not a teenager, she's 25. So that's different. 

08:14
But I think, from a family point of view, one thing is your responsibility for yourself, but when you also have to get this into a four-year-old and you have to get you know, but when you also have to get this into a four-year-old and you have to get you know, tweak it within the reality of extended family birthday parties. Maybe we don't use kindergarten and school, so for me it's been easier because I have them at home, but that's also a reality. So what I do is not an app and you can actually just take out a piece of paper and write it down. What is it they need and how can I put the flax seed in the porridge or should I throw it over the avocado sandwich? How do I do this and just make a plan. It's not. It's not actually a rocket science, you just have to take your time. 

08:56
I've been doing it over the years I know it's great. 

08:59 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I have felt the change in my body Absolutely, but it's first. In the last couple of years, I've been on my own journey of cleaning out and if I had read your book, like 10 years ago, it would have been a long list of don't eat this and don't eat this for me. Now it's more, and you can also add these things. 

09:21 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Nice, nice. 

09:24 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, last year, when I made some of the lifestyle changes, I went back to an early childhood dream of I want to live to 120. Okay, that's my minimum and I talk with a lot of people and there's a study you mentioned about how old do people want to be. Can you briefly mention this? Then I have a story afterwards. 

09:47 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Okay, yeah, it's really quite shocking. So people were asked how long would you want to live? And given, I believe the options were like 80, 150 or you know the indefinite or something, and most people, to my surprise, chose 80. Like what? 80. Like what, and. But then, ah, they changed it and said okay, how long do you want to live in good mental and physical health? Oh, then, all of a sudden, the majority answer switched to indefinitely. People want to live as long as they want to live, and so that brings up the important concept of healthspan, not just lifespan, the number of years you spend in wellness, without major disability, without major chronic disease. So that's kind of a critical point. What's the point of living longer if you can't live it vibrantly? 

10:43 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, but I was considering what role models I have when I started looking at it and talking with people and unfortunately, in my nearest family it's not the best role models for wanting to grow old, because, I mean, my dad has diabetes too and there's some challenges. 

11:06 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Mom basically died of old age when she was 65. 

11:09 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Yeah, yikes. 

11:11 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
That was yikes yeah. 

11:16 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, so we don't have that around us. No, so I'm considering do you, what should we do to like praise the elderly more so we can see these role models? Um, we have tried to start to look at them, find them around. We walked the Camino two years ago with a woman who turned 79 the day we started the. 

11:38 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Camino Nice. Yeah that was really nice. We could keep up with her that was nice. Our then, 17-year-old son. He was walking in front with her, her husband, kilometers in front of the rest of us, and it was just such a relief to see if just have some models, some people who were significantly older than us and just living the good life, telling us, teaching us how to walk the camino. That was really a good thing, but I don't know if people have these models out there. I have someone to look at to see that. 

12:16 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Well, you know, you can use models in both ways, right? So if everyone just grows up with these nice, long lived, healthy folks, they may not. They may kind of take their health for granted and just kind of assume that they're going to go down the same path. But oh my God, you have a dad with type two diabetes. You're like whoa, maybe I've really got to. You know, clean up my life. Type 2 diabetes is a preventable, arrestable, reversible disease. It's a lifestyle disease. And so it's like wow, I really have to make healthier choices, because I know if I don't, I may go down a similar path. Type 2 diabetes is the number one cause of adult onset blindness and lower limb amputations and kidney failure not a disease to be trifled with. And so you know it's, it's. You take the role modeling where you can get it and you take the lessons where you can get it, and maybe that's an even more powerful lesson and will keep you more on the track. 

13:09 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, when you know what you don't want, you know what you do want. Yeah, yeah, track. Yeah, when you know what you don't want, you know what you do want. Yeah, yeah, you said um, you said living healthy. Like what did you say? How was the phrase? Uh, years with good physical and mental health. So I'm a psychologist and I think the mental part, do you think the mental part, do you think the mental health part, is also tied so closely up to diet as the physical health part? 

13:40 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Well, there's certainly less research available, but there's certainly. Diet and lifestyle interventions can have been proven to affect mood, for example. So exercise can elevate mood, you know, make sure that you're sleeping adequately. There are foods that impairing their mood and within two weeks got a significant improvement in mood. Within two weeks got a significant improvement in mood. That's the first and fastest example of a randomized, controlled dietary intervention to improve mood. So the fact that within weeks and they thought it was this decrease in neuroinflammation, this arachidonic acid found predominantly in chicken and eggs, but by removing eggs, chicken and other meat they were able to improve mood within just two weeks. 

14:54
And we know that people who eat healthier feel healthier. But the question is cause and effect. Maybe people that feel healthier go on to eat healthier. I mean, you don't need comfort foods perhaps if you don't need to be comforted, and so that's why an interventional trial was so important where you can actually prove cause and effect change people's diet, change people's mood. There are some studies also on generalized anxiety disorder, but very few studies on major mental illness in terms of bipolar and schizophrenia, and so there really should be more research in this area. 

15:28 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, that's scarce and it's just not as simple. 

15:35 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
No, I was actually hoping it might be your next book now with how not to die, how not to diet, how not to age, how not to go crazy, how not to go crazy. 

15:46 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
It is actually on my list. I think it's 2031 is my mental health book. There's a pain book how not to hurt, next on pain management, then cancer, then mental health. 

16:01 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I would look forward to 2031. 

16:05 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
And actually the reason I put it at the end is not because I didn't think it was less important, but there's just not a lot of research. But by then hopefully there'll be more research. 

16:14 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, well, that makes sense. 

16:16 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I'm curious with all the research you and your team have went through, did you start out plant-based already, before you went down all your research? 

16:30 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
It was July 1990 with the publication of Dr Dean Orange's Lifestyle Heart Trial, which is the first randomized controlled trial suggesting that a healthy enough plant-based diet could reverse the progression of heart disease, our number one killer. So that's really what caused me to change my diet. But look, I had that experience with my grandmother, so I already knew it. I had that personal experience. But you know, it really didn't hit me until you know it was published, you know, in the Lancet, one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. There it was in black and white. And you look around the world and there were just crickets. And you look around the world and there were just crickets. Like, here we are with a potential cure for our number one killer, hundreds of thousands of people dying every year. Yet you know, people were just not. It was just not being folded into kind of mainstream medicine. 

17:30 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
And that's why I'm very happy you share nutrition facts with the world, because there's so much money in the medical industry that is funding research. Is it called brittle bones in English? Then she still believes she needs her half a liter of milk every day because that's what her doctor tells her. Based on the knowledge she has and it's very difficult to come from a more she look at me as a son with a more hippie wife. She's like, yeah, but where's the research about that Wife or wife Both? 

18:12 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Yeah, you know, doctors have a severe nutrition deficiency in education and most doctors just never taught about the impact health and nutrition can have on the course of illness, so they graduate without this powerful tool in their medical toolbox. Now there's also institutional barriers, you know like there's time constraints, lack of reimbursement. In general, doctors aren't paid for telling people how to take better care of themselves. Of course, drug companies also play a role in medical education and practice in terms of their influence. You know you can ask your doctor when's the last time they were taken out to dinner by Big Broccoli. It's probably been a while. 

18:47 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I was actually considering if you were like on the hit list of some of the big pharmaceutical companies. I wish. 

18:57 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
That's when you know you're having an impact on the world. When you end up dead in a ditch. 

19:01 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, I hope not. 

19:05 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It's easy for us, here and now, to talk about how the big money, big companies, big pharma is against and has at least has an agenda against a change for people to become healthier and live a plant based life. I'm just thinking. I mean, why is it so hard in general to choose the good thing most people do know? And yet even you still talk about comfort food oh yes and you wouldn't think a potato with olive oil and I don't know chopped herbs would be comfort food no, there is a quick, I mean. 

19:55 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
So why is? 

19:56 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
it so hard? What makes it so hard for us to choose the good thing? Because once you've done it, once you're doing it, you feel so good you can't imagine. You don't want that bullshit in your body, you just want to feel well, it's the uh. 

20:11 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
These are our natural biological urges, um, which are are which are exploited by the processed food industry. So we have a natural craving for sodium, right, because we evolved in a context of, you know, no salt shakers or KFC out on the on the African savannah. We also evolved in the context of scarcity, so we have a craving for calorie density, for sugary foods, fatty foods, you know. But that craving for ripe fruit and nuts and tubers, you know, has been taken advantage of by the industry to create these hyper-sweet, hyper-fatty, hyper-salty foods, to deaden our palate, such that normal natural food no longer tastes any good. So I mean, the ripest peach in the world would taste sour after a bowl of fruit loops right? 

21:04
but an amazing thing happens when you start eating healthier is that your palate actually changes. Your taste buds only last about two weeks, or replaced every two weeks, and so if you go long enough you know the major studies were done with low salt diets where you start out a low salt diet, everything tastes like cardboard and you're like there's no way I can live my life like this. But then something amazing happens. You start with soup salted to taste. Then after a few weeks, you give people the same soup that they salted before and it's actually too salty. You actually prefer a lower salt soup once your palate has had a chance to adapt. So you get to a point where all of a sudden you're eating corn on the cob no butter, no salt, and it's actually delicious. 

21:46
You know, people see me, you know, eating some microwave sweet potato with a little cinnamon on it, and they look at me like I'm some aesthetic monk and they're like, oh, wow, it's amazing, you could do that, but I could never do that. They don't understand. No, no, it's not a deprivation, it's actually delicious, like craveably delicious. But it certainly wouldn't have been if I had just been eating Hot Pockets and God knows what else, and so it's just. There's this activation energy. There's just a few weeks you have to go through, where, until your taste buds change, then all of a sudden best of both worlds tastes good and you get to live longer. That's what plant-based eating is all about. 

22:27 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Oh, yes. What is the? Based on all the knowledge you have gotten during writing all those books and going through all that research, what have you personally changed? 

22:41 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
oh, I changed stuff all the time. Um the uh. I mean, I learned people. I learned as much writing these books as people get reading these books like I wasn't taught this stuff in medical school. In fact, there are entire fields of study like microRNAs weren't even discovered when I graduated from medical school, and so you know, it's been a tremendous learning experience in terms of in terms of things that I've kind of personally changed or things that were kind of particularly surprising to me. That were kind of particularly surprising to me. 

23:18
Well, the exercise thing was surprising and how not to age, to sleep, the resveratrol, red wine, nad supplements, vitamin D, the fish thing, protein restriction, micrornas the list goes on and on. So I started eating papalis, which is this long pepper spice I'd never heard of before. I started eating more strawberries. Now I eat strawberries every day because of the facetin, which is most concentrated in strawberries. Wheat germ every day for the spermidine. I never did wheat germ. My mom in the 70s was a nice health food hippie. She was trying to give me wheat germ, but she was right on. 

23:54 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
My mom was right all along yeah, my mom was right in the 70s as well um, cardamom, um, I'm eating more tempeh because of the ergothionine and the spermidine. 

24:06 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
I started growing my own oyster mushrooms, yeah. So all sorts of uh, yeah, all sorts of changes because of all the stuff I learned, I was like, oh my god, I had no idea. This is so good for me. Sure, I'll sprinkle it on. 

24:18 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
No big deal, yeah, do you get overwhelmed by the number of information, like the nuances that that sheet of paper I, yeah, yeah, I'm always I'm always concerned about that. 

24:30 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Um, I don't want to intimidate people. People look at the size of my books. Like, I'm not to stage 13,000 citations, I mean it's just you know monstrosity. But like, if you look at the conclusion, it's really about let's go back to the basics. You know, even the most simple common sense lifestyle behaviors not smoking, eating more fruits and vegetables, not being overweight, daily exercise can mean literally looking a decade longer, and so you know that'll get you 80% of the way there. Now, look, if you want to keep tweaking, there's all sorts of things. Look, brian Johnson's got a million dollars worth of things. You can add on to that right, but it's important to realize that most of the benefit is really the low-hanging fruit, no pun intended. And then, yes, once you got the basics down, sure you want to, you know, power up, that's fine, but I don't think people are, you know, really taking advantage of all the really easy stuff that could get you really most of the way there. 

25:34
And look if people even stop there, just do the basics, oh my God, we'd have such a healthier society, even if they just got rid of soda, just got rid of processed meat, just added beans, berries, greens just a few things added, a few things taken away go a long way towards improving the public's health. 

25:53 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
We were actually visiting, as we are full-time travelers visiting the states here in the spring, and we went into a supermarket with no fresh produce and we were shocked. It was like what is going on. 

26:06 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It took me literally, it was me. You were not there. It was you were buying dog food with our daughter took me 45 minutes to realize. It's not that I can't find it. It's not there. I cannot buy a carrot here amazing amazing. I'm still shocked. It's been more than six months, yeah, even in a supermarket that does have produce. 

26:27 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
What percentage of that supermarket is dedicated to the produce? 

26:31
all right, oh yeah often the produce is just a loss leader. They actually don't make money on the produce, they just want people to come in frequently. So then you go in the checkout aisle and buy some chips and soda, which is really where the money is made. Uh, you know, the produce goes bad. It's perishable, rots on the shelf. It's the worst thing to sell. What you want is a snack cake that lasts on the shelf for a few weeks. You know, sell people bottles of brown sugar water. That's how you make money. 

26:56 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
You don't make money selling real food no right now we have the extreme reverse, if I can just say that I know we're um, we're in the south of england, south of london. This is the upper class of of a very wealthy country and the shops I shop in right now it's not supermarkets. It's biodynamic farms so there is no processed food amazing yeah yeah, you're making me jealous supermarket for three weeks and I just love it and one of them have like tap your own spring water here. 

27:32 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
It's so crazy good, yeah, no, but I I have a question about so, um, yeah, the whole industry selling supplements, they would love it. There was like the solution in a pill and I have looked about at our own supplement use from time to time and been like, oh, I think I need to ask him what is which one would you recommend? That is difficult to get into food, and I say difficult because most of it can be difficult. 

28:02 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Sure, right In general, we really should get our nutrients from the produce aisle, not the supplement aisle. But there are a few exceptions now, just because the way we live in our modern world For example, vitamin D, living in the UK for example, during the winter months the sun's rays are at such an angle that even if you went out and sunbathed naked by the Thames all day, you would just not make enough vitamin D, the sunshine vitamin, and so at that kind of latitude I mean we evolved running around naked in equatorial Africa getting baked in the sun all day and we just weren't. You know, we didn't evolve to be these kind of latitudes during these kind of months with all these clothes and shelter. And so if you get inadequate sun exposure, then 2000 international units of vitamin d3 a day is probably a good idea. Um again, it can be gotten naturally, you can get it through sunlight, but most people just aren't getting enough kind of midday sun at the right times of the year, the right latitudes. 

28:58 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
They look weird at me when I shop naked here. They don't like it. 

29:04 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
But we are going to space, oh excellent, all right. 

29:10 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
And then another important supplement for people that are eating healthy eating, plant-based diets, is vitamin B12. Critically important. It's important to get a regular, reliable source of vitamin B12. And so that's 2,000 micrograms once a week is all you need Super cheap, but something critically important to do. 

29:33 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
And that's all. 

29:36 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Look if you're an alcoholic, if you're pregnant, if there. I mean, there's other situations in which different supplements can be useful for people. Some people have certain allergies or bariatric surgery or you know, and they just don't absorb things Right. 

29:50 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
But kind of in general, it's really about know getting our nutrition from, from plants okay yeah, and then a lot of people would save on their budget and could buy real produce, because even better. 

30:04 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
I love it right right right yeah I love it all right. 

30:10 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
So, um, I know you are a wonderful busy man because you share your time with a lot of people. Where do people find more information if they want to follow along, if you can share this with us and our listeners. 

30:27 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
We would be very grateful. Nutritionfactsorg is where you can get all my work free. You can go to your local public library, check out any of my books and encourage people to learn the good news that we have tremendous power over our health destiny and longevity, that the vast majority of premature death and disability is preventable with a healthy enough dying lifestyle thank you so much and thank you so much for letting all that travels, safe travels. 

30:52 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I I'm jealous about your, your uh grocery shopping, but oh, it's amazing fantastic all right, it was a big pleasure having you on and, uh, thank you for all you do for the world. 

31:05 - Dr. Michael Greger (Guest)
Thanks, a lot the great work. 

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