#84 Marc Wallert | Strength Through Crises: Surviving 140 Days Kidnapped in the Jungle

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

00:00 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
So today we're together with Mark Vellert and first of all, Mark, it's super good to see you again and welcome.

00:07 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Equally equally. Hi Cecile, hi Jesper, it's so good to see you.

00:12 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, so our podcast is called Self-Directed. It is about parenting, traveling and about all the people we meet on our travels, and you are one of those and I would love to go right into it. So one of the times we talked um, you mentioned that you once in your life have been kidnapped, and that was a life-changing experience and I'm like we should get him to tell that story, because that is wild. So can we start there for the people who don't know who you are and your story, mark?

00:49 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Yeah, thank you. Of course. It fits very well, I realized, to the self-directed podcast, because that was an experience of not self-directed. That was how do you say externally directed. That was how do you say externally directed. So, indeed, I was kidnapped and I was taken to the jungle on the Philippines for 140 days, and those were terrorists, so I was in the middle of a guerrilla war.

01:18 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Why were you down?

01:18 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
there For holidays. So I was actually I was 27. That was in the year 2000. So I was there with my parents actually, which I hadn't seen a long time traveling always having traveling a lot myself and I was abroad. So we thought, okay, let's spend some time together in malaysia diving, which was really, really nice. And then it happened. And then they took us, abandoned, abducted us to the philippines and, um, I lost control.

01:49
Yeah was your parents abducted as well oh yeah, the three of us and 18 more other people were actually torn in two small boats, you know, for one paradise island on to um island, for 20 hours over the open ocean onto another island on the Philippines, which was bigger but full of war between the Islamic rebels and the military of the Philippines.

02:20 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Marco, how does an abduction happen? Are you on the beach and they come in with guns and treat what happened?

02:30 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
It was a super small island. It was just more turtles than people allowed on the island because there was a wild reserve and beautiful underwater, beautiful over water. You can walk around it for 20 minutes and then that's it. That's very small, very nice, and so you wouldn't think of anything like that to happen. So we actually had a sundowner. You know we were diving and easter sunday we sat there and watched the, the sunset, really just it was really peaceful moment. And then suddenly behind us there were heavily armed people and a lot of panicking people as well from the hotel staff, and then I looked into a huge bazooka, kind of a gun pointing to my head, which was pretty crazy moment. And then, of course, I did not know immediately what happened, but I knew this is going to be a wild story and it was. I don't want to frighten anyone, by the way.

03:39 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
To go on holidays because I think you have specific questions more like 140 days of on security, I presume no control of what happens and a big question about what's going on exactly that best describes the situation.

04:02 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
So uncertainty was the biggest, one of the biggest challenges that we didn't know how, when and it's going to end. So we didn't know, do we survive? We didn't know when would it be that we are back to freedom again and we could not fully or we could hardly control the physical surroundings which was given by nature, which was given by, you know, being in a certain area with the kidnappers. But, however, what intrigued me to also share it with other people, the story is that you can control pretty much your mental state and that's pretty enormous, and every one of us so there were 21 hostages, including myself we all developed some strategies, which they are called resilient strategies, so how to stay mentally strong and how to to cope with that uncertainty, with everything that happened, and that was really interesting to see how and that it works. It was interesting.

05:13 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So you want to evolve a bit on that. I suppose that strategy is that we could all use. We just don't have to be abducted at first.

05:21 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Yes, I mean, I realize, when sharing my story or when giving talks, then I realize that the people I'm talking with, or I'm talking to, um, that they're in similar situations, not being abducted by terrorists, but we are all hostages, uh, the one or the other way in our lives. I mean everyone, including the three of us, including my family, including all the ones who watch this video. We're, you know, we're, in the middle of a world which is like a jungle, which is, you know, surrounded by so many crises and we can't run away from it, be it climate change, be it the war, situations which evolve we don't know what direction, be it artificial intelligence, which is not a crisis, but you know, all those surroundings which we can't run away with. But we have to cope with it. We have to, um, stay strong in very turbulent times, and so this is where actually, um, we are in situations.

06:24
To give an example, in our situation, we were in this, you know, we just described in the beach, they put us into the boats and and we drive to, you know, heading for where, you know, I, I thought, you know, the thing is we wanted to do a night dive and this was the original plan, and I said, no, no, let's chill out, let's just enjoy the sunset. That's why we were kidnapped and this is why I was really regretting sitting on that boat. I thought like, my God, why didn't we do the night dive? Now, that's very natural to do, that's very human, but it doesn't help you. So what helped me was then to say, well, that's it. I mean, I can't go back in time, so let's better, uh, look ahead and to do this.

07:11
What helped me is that, um, I thought maybe this is some sort of a learning, uh experience in my life, because I was in a difficult phase of my life at that time and I I asked the universe to give me a sign of what to do with my life, and so I was like it could be that I posed the wrong question or posed it the wrong way, but this felt like not quite the answer, but perhaps leading to the answer, and so I thought like, okay, what's in it for me and so many people who find themselves in difficult situations? Sometimes it helps to say who knows what it's good for. Perhaps one day in my life I will understand okay, that was a difficult time, but it was a start for something positive as well.

08:03 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I would love to go deep in all that you learned, but I also I need to know you got out alive. I know you, you did, but but but if we can yeah, I know, I know, but it's more like so so if we can just close, so how, what happened? How did you get back and was there like a hostage negotiator involved and how was all that?

08:30 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
It was a very complex behind the scenes kind of a negotiation process. In the end, to cut a long story short, ransom money was paid for us, and so one after the other of the hostages was released, and so one after the other of the hostages was released, and I was among the last four, the group of four, who were released in the end, and so, yeah, so until then we actually didn't know do we meet again my parents, myself or everyone else. But we did and we're very glad and thankful for everything that helped us to get out and the kidnappers got what they wanted, which was money.

09:10
It sounded like yeah, and what they didn't want, obviously. So I think no one really survived in the end, but they did get the money and um, so but uh, just don't, don't go to war, don't kidnap people.

09:26 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
It's not good. No, how many do you? It must have been such a life changing event, mark, and you of course had your parents to share it with and connect with about it over the years. But was there some kind of bond created between the group, do you? I'm not saying you meet and have a hey, it's 20 years since we were abducted party but but is there some connection and maybe it fizzes out over the years? But how has that been?

10:07 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
it fizzes out over the years. But how has that been? Um, well, we wouldn't probably um have a abduction celebration, but a release celebration could be. I mean, this is a, is a um is a natural question. Um, it's 24 years ago. So I'm not, or we are not, in contact.

10:20
All of us, uh, we had been for some time, the years just after that, but also, I mean, it was a very tough experience where it was very close. You know, we, in the end, everyone survived, but we had a lot of very close deaths and very, it was a very tough time and so, and so we didn't almost only develop friendships Some people you were just happy to not see again, to be honest but we did work as a team during that time and after that, with some we were I'm still in contact, and with others not so. But we don't have a celebration party. No, we don't actually have that. No, but we think of it.

11:09
Yes, we do. We do sometimes meet on social media in the sense that you know, uh, that somebody of us has the, has a posting of saying, okay, wow, it's 24, four years ago, that I'm released and it's like my second birthday. That's what it felt like. And then so the others comment and say like hey, happy, happy second or whatever birthday, so this yes, but we haven't had a huge gathering with people in seven countries, you know, all over the world, two different lives as to, to to come together now I know you give a lot of talks about the story and also, maybe mostly, about what we can all learn from what you learned.

11:58 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So maybe it doesn't compare, but I beat cancer 13, 14 years ago and it's. It's not the same, but it is same kind of life-changing, life-threatening. Uh, it was almost the same time frame. I was hospitalized for six months and, uh, very close to not making it, and then I got out and and I also feel this second birthday feeling okay, I got one more chapter that I can fill out in the story of my life. And but then at the same time I often forget, like when you said do you celebrate or do you meet?

12:48
we don't even talk about it anymore no we didn't do a oh, it's a 10-year survival date, or it's as if these things you learn what you need to learn and go on yes, I fully agree.

13:04 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
First of all, um, well, I'm glad and congratulations that you made that adventure and, um, yes, it's hard to and it doesn't make sense to compare such experiences, but, um, some people I would say you know every person and every crisis or every challenge in life is just too different, but in the sense it's very similar also because you go through existential fear and then the way you react naturally is very similar, and also what helps to get out. So I'm I'm inclined to to ask a lot of questions to you, being a true expert of resilience, being there, being in in such good shape and and sharing also, um, your second life. I mean, you share a lot of your experience with all the all your followers and and the world, schooling and more surrounding. So I think that's your gift, that you also give back to others, and I'm inclined to say how did you, what did help you to get through it and how did this change your life?

14:21 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
if I may ask back I think some things are, to the extent that I know you already kind of are the same that I had, the post-traumatic growth I decided to, you know, come out of this stronger. I became more of what I was before. I wouldn't say I changed, I just want to say I sharpened. Does that make sense? You know, I no more soft porn. If there was anything soft before it's it's gone. Um, and I got more impatient. I'm very impatient by nature.

15:03 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I got more impatient I'm very impatient by nature I got more impatient.

15:06 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I have no moments to spare for nothingness. Um, for silence, yes, please, but not for bullshit and small talk and and things that don't matter. Um, it's very big part of the reason that we travel. We wanted to. Always, all the time we've together, we've been wanting to travel full time. But we couldn't get ourselves.

15:31 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
It would have been a dream we would have talked about on our 80-year-old birthday.

15:36 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Survived, and I don't sit well with Scandinavian winters which are effectively 50% of the time. I got this feeling. Now I have my life back and I'm giving half of it to winter. Why am I doing that? Lots of people live in other places.

15:57
Even though I didn't know that. How would we make it happen? I was looking at the planet, saying you know, millions of people live in spain. Why couldn't I do that? I have to stay here. I just got a little stubborn. Um, so, yeah, so that's part of it, and also, of course, all the sharing, which is maybe not so much, but most of the sharing comes from this idea that I want to just shout out for the personal freedom, for doing what is right, for not falling asleep, not becoming a zombie, not not obeying too much, not thinking that you don't have options. Get away from the fear and, as you said, it's all in the mind. Really, if you can, if you can I don't like the word control but if you can get to a good state of mind, trusting that it'll all be okay, then most things are not gonna. But I mean, we've had our fair share of setbacks in life, where cancer is an obvious thing, but there's been a few things and I just think we just bounce back.

17:08 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah.

17:10 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
And that's a choice.

17:13 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
May I follow up on that bounce back one? I mean you bounced back but you didn't go back to your old life. Obviously you changed quite a lot and that's a big difference between the two of us. I must always say and admit that one should expect that after such a Hollywood experience that you are changing your life immediately, and I must admit I didn't.

17:45
I went back to my old life, which was stressful at the time for job reasons, you know, being an international consultant close to burnout. And then I did go into burnout after that, you know, five years after my release. Burnout after that, you know, five years after my release. And it took a long time until I actually really had the post-traumatic growth, as you describe it, to really really understand what was in it, you know, to learn about myself in the jungle and what made me strong then and how can I apply in my life. It sounds silly, but it took quite a long time and today I can say that I, I, I do the things that I even wrote into my bucket list in the jungle, you know, saying if I survive this, you know I want to do it, yeah yeah, so I had exactly that.

18:40 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
If I survive this, that was my. So that's where I think, where you and I have had a similar experience that if I survive this thoughts because I had six months in the hospital with not a lot of energy, whole lot of vomiting, a whole lot of chemotherapy, a whole lot of struggling just to stay alive and in the mind was the okay, but if I survive, this will never again. A I will surely do, b I will.

19:09 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
All these things really I must, actually, that's interesting. That's interesting. I I must correct, I I realized because I did not write it this way. I wrote a lot of diary, which was great uh, it's a great tool in difficult times, um, but I did not write like I'm for sure going to do this.

19:29
No, I had a reflection that I said okay, now I'm 27, I even had my birthday in the middle of the jungle and um, and I reflected on my life and I thought like I had had a great life, to be honest. I had a lot of traveling, a lot of fun, a lot of even success and stuff. But I felt like, okay, two things so far I missed out. The one thing is to really fall in love and to found a family, which was one big thing where I thought like, if this was it, it. Then I missed out on that one. And the other thing was that I wanted to do something job-wise, or name it how you want, um, which is a passion and not just, you know, thriving for success, which I was at that time, successful. But so you know, I mean, I had a burnout for not for no reason, uh, later, so, and it took me a long time to actually correct this or to find my way Until here today.

20:32
I can say this is the only two things I do in my life, um my family and my passion, which today is uh, uh, giving giving talks and or writing a book or whatever, but sharing part of my uh life stories and in terms of resilience, but this is really. This took took so long. I was beyond 45, I believe, and then it made big.

21:04 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So but Some of these things just need a lot of incubation time. We didn't pull the plug and go traveling the moment I had my last blood transfusion. It took. There is a logic to it, because there was the five years of waiting to see if I was actually cured or not. So and what was it? Six years after we left, I feel like Fjord was six years old.

21:29 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, yeah.

21:32 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So I'm not trying to make this sound. No, no, we were slow as well, it was quite the shock and there was a lot of emotional healing. That had to happen, yeah, and I was weak and we had a miracle child. I was not supposed to be able to have more children but then I got pregnant really fast and that was not easy physically, just after chemotherapy. So there was a lot of, and then we decided to homeschool. So that was right after. That was the year after.

22:07 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Mark your passion. Today. You have written a book, given I don't know how many, talks on resilience. What is it about resilience that fascinates you, besides you having lived through what you have lived through?

22:27 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
It is the bounce back aspect, because I realize that many people believe you have to bounce back, and you know we have to. You know this. How do you say Tumblr toy? You know a Stehaufmännchen, it's in German. It's when you fall down, you have to just get up and to move on. And this is a big mistake and I made this mistake. I thought, you know, I just I'm back again, you know, but this is silly what you actually should do and which I did too late. So that's why that's my passion to share that story.

23:10
It's not about the jungle, it's not about the hero surviving a war or something like that. It's rather the one who did not learn the lessons until he had enough crisis in his life to realize okay, either I change something in my life or my life is not going to change. I will run in circles, I will get up and fall down at the same spot where I just got up. And you know this is a very tragic, uh, tumblr toy which is going up and down, and up and down. So if you want to move on, if you really want to grow, then really use. I mean, what fascinates me is that, let's face it, everyone, every single person has his or her own crisis, her in in life, and they are very different. It's it doesn't make sense to compare because everyone, for financial, health reasons, relationships, job, whatever feel that are uh close to losing their existence, as they imagine it to be, and uh, so it's part of life. It will not be go away. I still can say I'm still, um, blessed with uh wonderful challenges in my life, and now today. I don't want to be blessed with uh wonderful challenges in my life and now today. I don't want to be euphemistic. It's, I don't want to. You know, talk things small.

24:29
A crisis is a crisis is a, is a as a um, I don't want to say, I want to, don't want to give it a swear word, but it's bad, yeah, but, but at the same time, it's it is um, if you want to say, okay, I don't want this to happen to me or to anyone else, but now that it has happened, now that it's already there, now, at least afterwards, what's in it for me? This is what I really invite people to do to not just suffer through something and to get up again and to continue, but to really say, okay, wow, this was Now, was there anything, that there was my mistake and that I can correct, that I can change in my life and I did a lot of mistakes and once I realized, okay, I take responsibility for my mistakes, for choosing the type of relationships I had, for choosing the right of jobs, the kind of jobs that I had. I was free, I was not a hostage. I was for choosing the right of jobs, the kind of jobs that I had. I was free, I was not a hostage. I was me choosing it. So I can choose in a different way.

25:29
And this is what I later did and this is what today is not stressless, it's still a challenging life, but it's a life for which really choose and and which makes me happy and relationship wise and job wise. So this is, yeah, this is what fascinates me in resilience. It's not the. What I don't like, I must say, is to say you know, just stay positive. You know it's not about thinking positive and relaxing. This is, this is part of. Sometimes you need that. That's part of resilience, but the other one is to be very realistic, to really think about risks, to take decisions, to um, take responsibility to, to really face it and to, to, to take to, to steer your life and not to just, you know, think you are a victim and you just have to think positive, it's going to go away.

26:26 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Sometimes it's not to steer our life mark. We need some pointer for the direction we should steer in. How do you personally work with that?

26:42 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
With the direction.

26:43 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, if it's a ship you have and you say you need to take control and steer your life, I'm considering.

26:56 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Maybe first you need to have an idea about which direction you should go in. Well, generally spoken, what I mean is to take responsibility. As you know, you see me drinking all the time. This is actually part of my story. Let me go just a moment back to the jungle. We made a mistake as hostages, that we were very positive that we will be released soon and we didn't prepare to be involved in any type of shootings. But, but then suddenly we were in the middle of a war situations for a couple of days and we didn't have any water prepared. We didn't take it with us, so we almost died because we didn't drink anything for walking through the jungle. And then now we survived that episode. But then we learned we have to, you know, learn from the mistake and to then I always have water with me. Now it's a. I realized just the other day that I'm always drinking. I always have a bottle of water with me because, um, you know, I learned you should be prepared to, to have water. That's the first thing you need if you walk away somewhere and you don't find anything to drink. So this is a.

28:06
This was a jungle experience, uh, and now in life it's sometimes, um, reacting to learn from mistakes is is, uh, giving a new direction, because you don't repeat the same mistakes from before. And still, yes, the question is but not going somewhere doesn't say where are you actually going. So what's the direction in life for me? It's twofold, and the one was I always knew I want to found a family. This was one big dream. And another one was always the question what am I really fascinated by and what can I think and talk about all day which gives me energy? And this is, in a way, what I'm doing now.

28:53
But still, I must say the big direction in my life, in my family's life, is not actually coming from outside, from me. So we are free learners, we are world schoolers, we are a family More and more traveling, having left home some time ago and this is not actually on my initiative, because the direction giver, the strategic initiative, intuitive thinker, or the, the, the think tank behind it is, is, is my wife really. So I'm much more of an executor and then a shareholder and a supporter and everything. I I'm full-hearted going this way, but it's not initiated in my brain or in my heart. It's actually uh, the, the big directions of thinking out of the box was never my thing. I must say and now we're a very good fit in that sense that, um, my, my wife is just um very much out of the box thinker and uh, and I'm complimentary, yet I'd say to say the least I was about to say, I know that feeling and I love your wife.

30:07 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
She's wonderful she's great.

30:10 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Um, I was thinking when you said so what's the point? I was thinking of, captain Jack Sparrow, just bring me that horizon. It's about moving on, it's about being open to. I mean, I think there's so much individualistic goal, accomplishment, accomplishment, accomplishment, acquire stuff and accomplish more in the mainstream lifestyle that you have broken out of and that we have also broken out of, and our lives, in our lifestyle.

30:49
We physically move around. So it's not just about having some direction. We're actually living in a vehicle we have to think about, you know, we have to think about where do we go tonight, and that's physical movement. But as I see it, the most important element is to go. It's not what's always drawing, is what's behind the next corner, what's over there. So it is just bring me that horizon. The movement and being open to the adventure it gives is what it's all about. So you just need any direction. I can just come up with some. I don't know some piece of art I really want to see in the north of England, and then we have to travel all the way there and it's everything in between that will spark the real adventure, especially the people we meet and that you cannot plan for.

31:50
I'm curious about the resilience concept, because that's what you talk about, resilience, and it's a it's a word that really annoys me, to be honest you don't annoy me to get that straight, um, but the word is being used very often in the realm of talking about bringing up children, that we want our children to be resilient, and I wrote several things about how I do not want my children to be resilient and how I find resilience a really annoying idea.

32:25
Yeah, but this is within the realm of children, because I find community is very important and resilient children, especially resilient small children, the whole thing around it, the way mainstream talks about it to me sounds very much like children suppressing their emotions and children being forced into a fast lane development. That I don't think will help them in any way. It will actually set them back quite a lot in the long run. I think they need to mature slowly and they need to load, know that they are unconditionally loved all the time and uh, and there can be no pressure on how fast you grow when you're a child. So I'm just thinking it's interesting for me because I've put a lot of thought into this concept, but in another context. Maybe it's something else when you talk about it, or is it resilience among adults only you talk about?

33:30 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
I never questioned that, really, and um, I'm not sure I, um, I see the conflict between resilience and what, uh, and about kids or adults, it's the same thing. It's how to deal with with stress and awkward situations or crisis in in life is really and, and the best to, to, to, to get through it and to grow from it. So that this is, and the same holds true for kids and um, I haven't perceived uh, the world, the word resilience to be, uh, counterproductive for kids.

34:11 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I must admit in my life, in my sorry go on in in my perception.

34:18 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
What I realize is that this is something. This is like how my wife julie and I, how we um get together in terms of um thinking. I come from uh, well, I'm not from my resilience, experience and my reflections, and she comes from her intuition about a free life and and the the virtue of a free life I mean. So it's not just having fun and to be free and to have not responsibility. It's about it's a growing process, it's about learning from taking responsibility, learning from your own mistakes and all that and and this is uh. This is really when I see what drives um, the intuition. For example, um to to to. It's not even unschooled, we never schooled. It's. It's free schooling, it's free living. And she always keeps saying it's not unschooling, it's not even unschooled, we never schooled. It's. It's free schooling, it's free living, and she always keeps saying it's not unschooling, it's not, it's. It's not, it's just free living, it's for her, it's so normal. She just says, like it's free living because it's it's it's so logical. Say, can't you feel that? And? And then it's uh.

35:26
It's really intriguing to see that uh, she thinks about it in a different way, but she means the same thing it's about, um, as an, it's like an organism to, to, to prosper, not despite, but also because you are in in an environment where you actively participate, and and that means it's like diversity in nature. You don't want to have everyone the same, it's monoculture, it's not resilient, you want everyone to be different. It's complicated, it's crazy, but in the end it's diverse, it survives. And the same with kids. You can't always tell them what to do because they will never find out what, what, what type of flower they are.

36:13
And from my, from, from my book of life, I learned that I was not resilient because I did what I thought was right to do, to have success, to do all these things, whether my boss says, you know, because I always did what my parents said and you know, I learned to do what other, to please people, to be successful. And then, so late, I asked myself what do I want in my life? What is really interesting me myself and this is exactly like a part of what we try to avoid is to to tell our kids what to do, because then we kill themselves exploring themselves. So, in a sense, um, we tell it or we look at it from a different side. But what world and preschooling very much is for me, is to allow resilient kids to prosper.

37:09 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I think Cecilia might have read some articles of blog posts where people use the word in an absolutely another way than you do it, where it's about children becoming um basically the word is being used.

37:23 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I realized why you talked about it, because we come from the same world of unschooling and free living and respect for everyone, including children. You know it doesn't matter how old you are, you're still worthy of 100 respect, um. But the word resilience and resilient children. It often appears in the context of schooling. It appears you know you want the children to be able to handle the pressure of school oh yeah complaints yeah, yeah, this is I want the children to complain and rebel yes, because it's like being taken hostage for 10 years of your life.

38:01
Basically not as severe, maybe, as your experience, but there are similarities. There is no control. They have not, it's not, and they have no choice to not be there. And then I hear this oh, but we want the children to be resilient.

38:17 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
No, we don't. We want them to protest.

38:20 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So I think that's why I have this hesitation with the world. Okay perfect.

38:24 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Thank you so much, cecile. It hits the nail upon its head. This is, jesper. You asked what is fascinating you about resilience. It is you about resilience. It is, you know, and I agree, totally, not just in the school context, but also in business context.

38:37
People think you know you have to be resilient to just to, um, to cope with a lot of shit. Sorry to say that no, no, no, no in your podcast, but you know, to just to swallow everything and to still survive. And this is this. Sometimes that's just wrong, to just to cope with something. Sometimes it's right to to really to change it, not to cope with it and to get out of an environment, not to to learn to, to cope with the environment. And you know, if there are companies, uh, like, asking you can, can you give a resilience training?

39:15
Then the big question is what for? Do you expect the people to to complain less and to to to burden more, or is it, I mean, stress? If you're stressed, that can be just a symptom for something going wrong externally, and and sometimes it's important, and companies always see that it's do you have the right strategy? Are you in the right market? Do you have a good culture in your leadership, in your communication, or is there something to change? And you shouldn't make your employees kind of shut up. You should listen to them because this is what teaches you where something is to be changed. And the same with kids, obviously. You should not just make them suffer with a smile. You should make them aware that something is to be changed, or to let them become aware. I mean, you don't have to make them be aware. Kids know exactly, unfiltered that something goes wrong and to listen to them is a pure source of clarity.

40:27 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It is, and the word resilience is just being misused.

40:31 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Oh yes.

40:33 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It's not about actually wanting resilient children. It's about wanting children who obey.

40:37 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, nice.

40:41 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Okay, I nailed that one Nice.

40:44 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Next, next Inside of the bag.

40:50 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
I couldn't agree more.

40:56 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Your turn. I couldn't agree more. Your turn, yeah, no, no, no, because it's my mind is sometimes funny mark, and I'm like I get questions pops up in my mind and then I'm like is that weird to ask?

41:10
but I will ask anyway, oh yeah, please 140 days in the jungle in a tropical island. If there weren't, if you weren't in a situation where you was held hostage, some of it must have been enjoyable. You must have seen some beautiful nature. How do you cope with and let me continue the story with my own personal experience of sitting at home in the tub. I've told the story before on the podcast.

41:38
When Cecilia had cancers, one of these days where I didn't know if I would see her the day after, I was sitting in the tub with our two youngest it was pre-beard and we were making a foam bath and I made a beard and looked funny and we laughed so much and at the same time I'm like, oh, maybe my wife is dying, hey, but this is funny, yes, so word there. So, and this gave me strength to live through that period that I I I became aware that if a situation I cannot control, then it's okay for me to also enjoy the here and now, because me worrying won't solve it. My job was to be there for my kids, be the support for my wife. When I saw her be there for the kids, be there for the kids, that was like my only job Make them as whole as possible through this process? And at the same time, my question is then what are some good days in the jungle, mark, was there some wonderful animals to look at? Did you see some butterflies which are just mind-blowing beautiful?

42:48 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
oh, yes, yeah, oh, what you describe is so important. Um, um, you, you have to uh, look at the positive and you have to laugh, not despite of a dangerous or even deadly, uh, risk or situation, but because of it. You know, if you don't fill up your batteries and humor is a great thing, enjoyment is a great thing to do so then that's it. You most likely won't survive. And so, yes, there were moments in the jungle which were so crazy, so crazy. One example was we were walking for two days and one night, you know, running away from shooting situations and almost, you know, starving on the way was really tough. But then we walked by a tree which was full of how do you call them, those light bulb bees or whatever? You know those. How do you call them? I don't know, it's Glühwürmchen, like flies.

43:59
So I don't know the English word for others, like light bulbs.

44:04
And the whole tree was full of thousands of them and you could see the tree was just know, there, just like a, like a miracle, and this was so beautiful and um, and to just see it and to, to to believe it could also be a positive sign somehow from whatever happened, heaven, universe, name it as you like, but to to enjoy. That is very important. We did laugh a lot. Yes, not despite, but because of the situation. We laughed, we played, you know, we, uh, we made jokes and stuff.

44:40
And you know, the most crazy thing is that I didn't know that one of my survival strategies on life is a gallows humor. And I became aware of that in a very difficult situation where actually the kidnappers were standing in front of us and making very clear if no ransom money is paid, then we will chop off your head, we will behead you. And this is when I came up with a sentence Mark, don't lose your head, we will behead you. And this is when I came up with a with a sentence mark, don't lose your head now. Which means you know, don't get crazy. You know, and at least in german it does you know, don't lose your head now. And this is, uh, no, nothing and was so. Um, it's not. You know, it's not really a joke, it's just a matter of you're reacting somehow it's really funny, though, yeah it is uh, um, and it's not, I don't know.

45:35
Gallus, humor is a very special animal and and humor is is just great. And I know the issue with with a bad conscience is if somebody else is, you know, but I mean like medical doctors, that they have such a stressful job so sometimes they do make jokes just to, you know, cope with it, and that sounds perhaps like very bad, but it is actually very helpful. No, I couldn't agree more. This is uh, laugh, laugh, um, not about somebody, but just to keep well.

46:14 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, I agree Having fun. Having fun is the centerpiece of getting through hard times, and we'll also make the hard times a little less hard.

46:27 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Absolutely, mark. We try to keep our podcast in a certain length, but it was just. I love talking with you, so I will ask for some advice for our listeners. What is the normal advice you share with people based on the journey you have been on in life? Is there one overall? I'm like know, I know it's a little like hey, just shop out the best yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

47:01 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Okay, good, one sentence or two, okay, uh, for for you personally or for you said uh, some advice for your business. I understood no, no for the business people listening for you, for the listeners.

47:13 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I understood for the business okay, um no, no no for the listeners.

47:19 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Well, I, I believe okay, they're like um, if you're in trouble and sooner or later we are in life, um, then what definitely helps is accept the situation. That doesn't mean you need to love it, but accept that it's there to deal with it. And then to stay optimistic means don't drown in your fear, but try to do what you just described. You know, try to find positive aspects and be at a foam bath with your kids and to fill up your batteries. Be not just optimistic, but realistic as well. So don't think, you know, it's not just that bad, it's going to end soon. Sometimes, be realistic and say, okay, what if? Have a plan B, be prepared, deal with the risks.

48:13
Number four is don't stay a victim, but act. Do something about your situation, even little things, and be proud of every little advancement that you make, even if you can't solve the whole big thing at once, which is called self-efficacy. It's a. It's a great one as well. And the last but not least is don't stay alone, never walk alone. Really try to to be in a network, connect with other people because, yes, together you are stronger in a difficult situation. And the more you uh, connect yourself and good times, the the bigger the social net that will help you in in difficult times and this is just being in a situation and, more importantly even, is learn all that's why I try to sum up my resilience learning in the title of my book, which is a two-name title.

49:16
It's Strength Through Crisis, and the one is what I just described is to stay strong in a difficult time, but to grow stronger from it is even more important. So if you really have a crisis that you survived, then don't, like I did the mistake. Don't forget to look back and to really ask yourself what can I learn from it? And the best would be did I make a mistake that I can avoid in the future? Then that's the best you can do from it. Then you get even stronger. I love that.

49:57 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Wisdom summed up More than a sentence I'm really sorry, I like it. You can make YouTube clips.

50:08 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah. So, mark, if people want to know more about your story, your work and your book, where do they find you?

50:19 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
Well, in the internet, if you enter my name it's Mark with a C and Wallert, then sure you find my website, which is also there in English. You find my book as well, which also is there in english. Uh, you find my book as well, which also is there in english. Um, strength through crisis uh, it's available everywhere. And um, yeah, and on every social? No, not, that's, that's wrong. I'm actually not that strong on every social. Ah, social media no, no, not at all. Best on linkedin, a little bit on instagram or facebook, and I'm super happy to connect. I'm super happy if people come up with questions or come back to me and exchange even about their stories of life. I'm super open and happy about that.

51:05 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Perfect but here's the recommendation for people to go out, check your website and read your book. And, mark, once again it has been a big pleasure and give a lot of love to your wife from us.

51:17 - Marc Wallert (Guest)
We look forward to see her again also, and now it's the time I was obviously supposed to greet you from her as well. Thank you so much for sharing your story as well, for helping us through our lives as well, and great Thank you for inviting me to your podcast. All the best.

51:35 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It was.

WE HOPE YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE