Da Ladies #12 | Da Ladies' Final Episode: Embracing Change & Welcoming New Voices

00:00 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Welcome to episode 12 of the Ladies Fixing the World. We are going to call this the end of a season which is going to be an interesting conversation. I have the same wonderful group of women with me today Luna, you are still back in Denmark, I think, and Sarah moved back to Australia. Welcome, sarah, and Carly, you are in the north of Spain, as far as I know. Yes, yeah, welcome. Today, we are going to talk about, I think well, we're probably going to talk about many other things that we think we're talking about right now, but we're starting off with this thing of life getting not getting in the way, but the here and now taking center stage, which is the reason episode 12 is coming out, 15 months after we started on a monthly podcast on a monthly podcast.

01:10
So that's just like that, honestly given what we've all been doing, I think that's pretty good, yeah, yeah, I'm not feeling any like failure at all. I'm just saying that it is because the life we live we have chosen that the here and now gets to have first priority all the time, most of the time yeah, I mean all of the time, I guess I well, yeah, what's the difference between all of the time and most of the time?

01:44 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
I guess, well, yeah, what's the difference between all of the time and most of the time for you when you say that?

01:51 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I feel, for example, doing this, I'm pushing other things aside. I could be needed around my children, or I could be fixing my husband's only pair of long pants, now that it's October and we're in England, or I could be cooking a meal. I could be. So, choosing what is the real life that has to have center stage here and now. It's always a choice, basically, and and and I do feel that I have to pull the plug of the here and now, where there is always a lot of need for me and my things I can do and the love I can give and the space I can hold and and the practical everything I can do.

02:50
Sometimes I just have to block it and say I'm taking this hour to record a podcast and I'm not going to let you stop me, and it could be the podcast. It could also be I'm going for a run now and I know the kitchen is an explosion and it's someone's birthday and and we're 15 people living together and a lot of other things. I need to take care of my own physical body. I'm going for a run and that feels for me. It's very hard to do. There's a lot of actually personal development for me and every time I do it, I have to pause and breathe and and and convince myself it's okay. So that's what I mean by sometimes. So what? What is real life? Is my running and my podcast recording real life? Or is it only the children?

03:51 - Sara Beale (Guest)
yeah, that's an interesting question like what is real, what's real life? What's real? Uh, arguably, lots of people probably would think that the things that we would choose to prioritize are, like, quite different to what normal people would choose to prioritize, and that doesn't mean that those people aren't living a real life. Um, every single thing that we choose in the moment is real, isn't it? But there is only so many hours in the day, of course, like that's just natural. There's only so much one human can do in that day. There's only so many needs that can be taken care of in a day. That's true, um, and I guess for me, uh, it's not well for all of us.

04:42
Actually, carter's children are the youngest, but I remember so clearly. Still, it doesn't really feel like I'm that far out of those years when the kids' needs are so immediate, like you've got to take care of the thing now and there really is only literally what is happening in this second, like someone's spilt their drink, someone else is going to walk in it, somebody else has dropped something, somebody else is really hungry, and they're only three and they can't wait another second. Somebody else is on the toilet and they want you to wipe their bottom, whatever, like all at the same time, and then you just remember to put a souffle in the oven. That's the sort of thing I used to do. Just remember, you put a souffle in the oven. That's the sort of thing I used to do.

05:26 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I didn't put a souffle in the oven when my kids were there what is she talking?

05:34 - Sara Beale (Guest)
about. I'm not even joking, it's not even a metaphor. I was literally insane. But I can still remember that and I'm right now. Some days it feels like that again because you know Dylan's not here. So it's like sometimes, um, the needs seem quite immediate, um and uh. My kids probably have gotten a little bit used to not having to wait very much because I've like always been available. Um, that's a whole other episode, but anyway, it's just all. It is all choices. I like how you framed that, cecilia, because it's we have to just make choices, and every every minute of the day it's like am I going to do this one or this one? And sometimes that flows really easily and everything just happens beautifully. And you get to the end of the day and everything worked so well and everyone's happy, and you got to have a run and the kitchen's clean, maybe folded some washing all in one day. What?

06:37 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Overachiever over there.

06:42 - Sara Beale (Guest)
I'm not saying every day, just like some days and then other days doesn't matter how well you plan.

06:51 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I think so. Yesterday we were talking sitting at the approaching the end of the day we're two families living together right now we talked about how very often it was about five ish o'clock so we just about to think about making dinner, maybe, and and just having a little moment sitting down and we talked about how, at this time of day, very often it feels like could it just be around 11, 15 in the morning, still like you're that far down on the to-do list and and now you know, oh, I have to make dinner, and then after dinner there's all the conversations in the kitchen and then basically it will be the end of the line for that day, and I wish it was just still morning. I have a lot of days like that where the urgency of the here and now, the things that just has to be done, they take up, they fill up a lot of hours. But I also wanted to say when the kids are small, the needs are urgent. True, and maybe we could not have done a podcast at all during those years. We could not have done a podcast at all during those years. But now that they are older, their needs take up a lot of time and they take up a lot of my mental capacity.

08:16
I use my own personality psychology. It's kind of an instrument. I simply run out of battery and well, I don't. I'm always available, but it's just my bandwidth kind of thing. I don't blog. When they were little I wrote 400 articles for a blog I wrote, and that happened before they got big and helped fold the laundry and clean the kitchen. And that happened before they got big and helped fold the laundry and clean the kitchen, whereas now it's as if my whole thinking capacity and the processing of emotion, all those hours and hours of conversations I have with them every day, there's nothing left when I hit my pillow, whereas when they were small I would sit in bed and have things to say and be able to actually put it down in writing and upload it on a blog and be productive. I don't do that now, so that I'm trying to aim for your seasons theme you proposed before, sarah. That's, things change.

09:32 - Sara Beale (Guest)
Yeah, the reason that the seasons thing resonates for me is because I think in our modern world there's so many opportunities to be told that what you're doing right now isn't right and you need to fix that or stop doing that, or stop doing this and do this new thing, and this is wrong and you should do this other thing instead and you need to throw out everything you've been doing up until now and take on this new thing, which is the total opposite. And a lot of that can lead to shame and guilt and regret, and I don't. That doesn't feel very good to me and I love the idea of seasons, or chapters as you put it, because something naturally comes to an end and you feel it coming to an end. You know when? Um, I always remember, uh, feeling summer coming to an end and feeling this like grief, of like, oh, I know really soon I'm going to pack my shorts away and put my jeans back on, and I'm not ready for that yet, do you guys? I mean, it's maybe different in Australia because it's so damn hot in summer.

10:42
The first time you ever wear jeans at the end of summer, like beginning of autumn, the first time you put jeans on, it's like oh, I don't like that feeling, I don't like the feeling of the jeans. No, I want it to stay 35 longer. I'm not ready. And then, gradually, over the next few weeks, you have to put your jeans on a couple of times, because maybe there's a couple of days where it's a bit cooler. So you've got to put your jeans on and you're like oh yeah, okay, I can do this. I'm sort of remembering all the jumpers I've got in the back of my wardrobe. I'm really excited about pulling out my jumpers for winter and by the time you actually wear the jumpers, you're like oh yeah, I'm cool.

11:24
I'm okay to let summer go now, because I'm remembering that winter's like really lovely and I've got all my jumpers and you guys know I love jumpers right and we'll be able to drink like warm drinks, and it'll be fun to put a fire on, and we won't have to carry 20 liters of water every time we leave the house and we won't have to worry about remembering hats. It's a new thing and we're letting go of the old thing and we're totally ready for it, and that's. It always takes me a really long time to move from one thing to the other, because there's this like no, no, I'm not ready, but that's why I like the idea of seasons, because you can let go of this thing. That was great and it was beautiful and you enjoyed it. And now we're doing something new and that's going to be cool too, and there's no shame, there's no guilt, there's no like oh, we should have done it different. You're like oh, we're just ready to move into a new thing now and that feels just nicer for me.

12:15 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
And applying that to, you know, kids and unschooling, which is and I also I think that for people or families like us, that when you travel, I think you have more change of seasons, because your life is more now. You are in a place for a while with these people and then at some point you will move and you will be in another place, with another people, another weather, another everything. But then you, the changes I was going to say, get easier, but it's not. But you are more used to this transition, because we always know when we get to something new and we are excited and then it starts and everything at the beginning is shit, because, yeah, because we have to, yeah, I don't know why, but we know. So then we start feeling like, oh, why, why are we so angry? Or why are we? And it's like, yeah, we just. And it's like, yeah, we just arrived. We know it will take a couple of weeks. So then we are more, we give space for these things to happen, we are more kind and we know. So I mean this transition for the change. Maybe it's easier when not only traveling, but maybe in a in life, because you change, because you are open, because you are listening. So, oh, maybe this is not what I thought. They are needing something. So, yeah, I think we work a lot in changes. I mean, now that I'm listening, we are talking about that.

14:04
Yeah, I know, it's like I know how to work through these things and I'm also reasoning with the I'm not ready, because now myself I'm in a like changing things. I was doing something and now I'm getting ready for doing like another thing, like professional, professionally or working. So it's like I'm like stopping something. So I'm, but I I wanted to start in October. But at the beginning it's like, no, I'm not ready, but I have it here, you know, but I'm getting ready, I know I'm getting ready, and and then someday, someday you say, okay, now I'm gonna start. So then you open this new page and then you start Start writing yeah, so I like the change, I like the season. And then when people ask you, how is it a normal day? You know an example day in your life? Well, we have season. I always say that it depends.

15:07 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
We have season depends on where we are, what we are doing and changing change yeah, I think the base of, well one of the cornerstones of unschooling is to let go of having a general structure.

15:31
This is how it's supposed to be, so the lifestyle puts us up for potential change all the time, us up for potential change all the time and we get ready to modify whatever idea we have. We, the four of us, have been traveling a lot, so for us there is a lot of location change as well, but also the setting. One thing that was the right rhythm, the right way to do things. The right like. This is how we roll at the moment can change in a heartbeat because someone changes priority or, you know, they grow, we grow, my family, we're actually not like that much, like Sarah.

16:30
Um, not wanting to put the shorts away, I think we we've arrived at a point now where, okay, we're, we're moving, let's go and and uh, we don't. People always often say, oh, we're going to miss you so much, and it's been, but we don't. We love our people, but we don't actively miss them when we're not around them. It's not like a pain in my heart to not be around my people. I'm okay with it, I'm okay with whatever is, and, and I and I try to me myself be aware when we are moving into a new stage or a new location which is very often the same thing for my family just be aware what.

17:12
What does this have to offer. What do we need right now? What are we letting go of? What habits that we had in the previous stage do we want to preserve? Or it's still supporting us and what? What just had to do with that country or house or place or group of people we were around. So, being adaptive to change? I think it comes with the lifestyle, being open to change and also learning to adapt that your life is not falling apart because you have to move out of your house or or, yeah, change your plan. I always said I I know I've said that many times with luna back in the days um, you always have to write down your plans with a pencil, do not ever use a pen, because you are going to change the plans. And and it's been very obvious, uh, and it is the reason we realize now that, uh, this will be the last episode of season one yeah, I think there's so many themes in this discussion and like it's hard to pick one but.

18:20 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
But I've just been thinking. I think this all ties back into the whole idea of attachment to outcome, which we've talked about before, because change is harder to accept and harder to live through when you have a high attachment to some specific outcome and there's just so much in it. Like people will often say to me oh, oh, you're moving. Oh, moving is one of the most stressful things and it's so hard and oh, I'm never gonna do it again. I just moved and and I'm just like, well, no, actually, no, it's not. I like I've moved 150 million times, so it's it's. I don't actually find it hard or super stressful or or something big or, but that's, that's like, that's my lifestyle, so so obviously you also grow into that but but. But also, I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say here, but the attachment to outcome is a good sorry.

19:23
Well, that's the thing. It's like I'm not I'm not necessarily looking, or I'm not like looking for the perfect point to arrive at at some point, and then I'll stop moving around and then I'll stop living this life of change all the time, or because that's not it. I'm not changing to obtain something that I don't have. I mean, I might be, but that's a nuance. It's like I like ships and I like to try something new, but I'm not like searching for something that I feel like, oh, I'm only going to be happy when I have this and then I'll be happy, and I might be losing a little bit the thing here. But but I was also thinking, um, like coming back to the school system and the whole schooling of our minds, which is obviously a big point in our discussions as well, is that? And I think, sarah, didn't you just post something about holding kids to a decision, like they want to try basketball or they want to try piano or something, and then they got to stick to it because you know, they said A, you got to say B, blah, blah, blah, and so that is what most of us learn and we're like brought up that way, and that is what the school system teaches you is to like you have to finish what you started, and we've talked about this before. I think, like you have to finish what you started, and we've talked about this before.

20:45
I think and I think there's a lot in that that also sometimes not sometimes all the time that's part of the reason it's so hard for a lot of people myself included, until I sort of learned it to live in the moment and be in the moment and accept. You know what is Like what you said. Silly still, it is what it is, that that thing about loving what is which is Byron, katie, title of a book, right, but that's very hard when you're like either attached you know, attached to an outcome, or when you've had this upbringing of, oh, you need to finish what you started. Because if you like launch a project and it doesn't become something a success or whatever, then it's a failure and that's an idea to change. I think Like it's like no, it's not.

21:36
Like I've done a hundred million projects like that I've launched and some have become something a success or whatever. Some I've like gone all the way through and like finished or whatever, and a lot of them are just like oh, I launched this and it's not working, I'm not going to spend any more time on it. I do do something else and my focus shifts oh, I actually don't like this anymore. Well, I'm not going to do it anymore Because I'm sort of free of that whole idea of I have to stick with something because I started it or because I said I would. I don't really know where I'm going with this. Somebody save me please.

22:24 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I have a friend that I love. You know, with this thing of, if you start something you have to finish it. And this, this woman said that she was. This woman said that when she was little, all her life she starts many things, but then she left the things, and all the time in her family or people it's like you always leave the things without being, and she told me that's not how I feel.

22:57
What I feel is I just took what I need from that thing and then I don't need more. So I change to the new things till I have enough. I don't need more of that. So it's not that I left it, it's that I don't need more. So then she took what she needed to know, or developed the ability she wanted or whatever, or the interest, and I like this approach, like why we have to look at it from this point of view, like I don't know, the war now, not the opposite of abundance, you know like you have to complete you have to complete this thing, you have to complete this to be something or to whatever in this.

23:52
Uh, with this view, you always are feeling things you are or, I mean you don't need. You're taking everything. All the time is for taking things not to. Oh no, I didn't feel it so is it a little bit like?

24:10 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
very often, when I talk to people to whom the idea of unschooling is completely new, I bring up the point you know, there's no way you can know what your children could have achieved with all the hours they spend in school, because they spend those hours in school and there's just no way you can ever know what would have happened.

24:31
And it's a little bit the same thing if, if you sign up for learning to speak mandarin and and you buy the books and you start the course and you you stop it after two months yeah, you're not going to be fluent in mandarin, but though, those hours that are now free for something else are now free for something else and you are going to spend them, somehow, fill them up with something that hopefully makes more sense and and in a way in the in the all is good. I take what is. I believe that this moment is giving me what I'm supposed to have. There's the same. I have to just trust that whatever, whatever I I do with my time and whatever I choose to prioritize at the end of the day will be the right thing, that it will stack up, and trusting that whatever we put in our backpacks is going to be what we need down the road. We say in our family that there's no giving up. We never give up, ever. But we do change our plans I give up.

25:48 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I mean, why not?

25:49 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
yeah, but but it's like there's. There's um, something about value as well, like there's like our culture and society and the way we're brought up in school is like we learn that everything has to have a like, a higher purpose, sort of like a like you have to go somewhere with what you're doing or whatever, and, and so that's that's a question also about is there value just in doing something? Just to do it like and not to? You know, become a professional tennis player. You can't just play tennis because you like tennis. Or you can't just do two freaking months of Mandarin Chinese language course because that was fun and you're not going to use it for anything ever.

26:36
I mean not necessarily you might and it still has value in its own right, and I think that's something our society doesn't teach. Like that it's the opposite. It's like you have to be productive, it has to lead somewhere. Like that ties back into the whole. Are they learning something? Like? I have a few blog posts about doing nothing because, like, we often do nothing in our family. Like it's like, but we're not doing nothing, but from the outside it might look like we're not really doing much. I don't know, but obviously we're doing something and that's something like you said, cecile, in that moment is valuable and it's what we choose to do, and then it has value, and then it's okay and it doesn't need to lead anywhere, particularly like some point in the future, or oh.

27:28 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
There's just so many different concepts and ideas tied into this, I think but is it a question again about that being attached to an outcome and maybe even feeling you need an outcome idea to engage in an activity, versus the trust, the process, and it's all good mindset? I don't think I've ever learned anything. That didn't. Of course I did because I'm in the process of life. But the things that I've learned during my life also just the random things all have come in handy somehow, even the 10 words I know in Turkish words I know in Turkish. It's just if I have fun doing something, if I learn a third of a skill or if I I don't know randomly one day, like Sarah said, actually fold all the laundry and wipe down all the counters and do all the practical things and I might even be able to take pictures for Instagram of my space around me me. That even comes in handy.

28:45
It wasn't just a frantic waste of time where I could have sat down and talked to my children or went out on that run. It was actually. There was a point to it and usually I realized that. And sometimes I realized 10 years later oh, that thing I did back then only a little bit of and where it looked like I gave up. Now it's coming in and it's serving me so well. So my personal journey is just this I keep being reinforced and just trusting the process. You can call it to give up, like Carla just said. Oh, she gives up, and of course we do. It looks like giving up, but I just think it's a better mindset to say no. I changed my plan. I thought I wanted to complete this Mandarin course but doing it I learned I don't want to do that and now I'm making a new plan for my fall or whatever Thursday afternoons.

29:44 - Sara Beale (Guest)
This seems to bringing it back to living with a school comes back always to trust and trusting that, whatever it is that's going on right this moment, whatever choice you make right this moment is the right choice. And obviously the four of us are all in the practice of trusting our children to degrees that would probably horrify many people, because I won't speak for you guys, but I've made it a practice and it did not come. I don't feel like it came naturally. So I did have to actually develop a practice around trusting that what my kids are doing right now is what they need to be doing right now, and it doesn't matter if I understand it or not, because something in their body is telling them to do this thing right now.

30:37
And through observing that, I learnt at eventually, at almost 48, that what I choose to do right now is also the right thing for me to be doing right now, even if it doesn't make sense to anybody else, and that there doesn't have to be a quantifiable, tangible outcome, there doesn't have to be a finished project um, although you know that can be nice too that whatever we choose, because this feels right is right and that is so different it is lit is almost literally the complete opposite to how the vast majority of the world are schooled to live to completely ignore what your body is telling you right now and to do this other thing that somebody else says is a priority.

31:35
So to me, these are practices, and these are the practices of how we live, trusting that our kids are doing the thing that their body or their heart whatever is telling them to do right now, even if someone else thinks that doesn't make any sense, and through observing that, that we have also reconnected to listening to what our body is saying. This is what you should be doing right now to listening to what our body is saying this is what you should be doing right now.

32:05 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
But even that, I think, sometimes needs questioning. Funny enough, I spend a lot of time with my children and husband talking about values and talking about projects and talking about how do we distribute our time. What do we really want to do, what's really important? And I do trust them and myself, but I also question them and myself. Just stop sometimes is this really what I'm doing? Do I need to frantically clean everything right now, or is this two hours? I've already done enough and I need to change and go do something else?

32:45
And in the same way, I sometimes ask my kids is this really what you? Are you sure you're doing, what you really want to do, or are you just kind of defaulting? Or did you forget that you also have that option? Or do you? Do you need my presence? Should we go for a walk? Do I seem unapproachable because I'm frantically folding laundry that actually doesn't need folding, just because I need a little bit of mind space, whatever, I got absorbed in something. So, yeah, there's trust, but I also think it's there's the question everything in that matrix of the trust, even questioning am I on track? I think that's a very important question, and I ask it all the time yeah, I question things all the time also.

33:33 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
But I was thinking now all the time, but you have been talking about trusting and then I realized that I never use this sentence like I trust the process and my kids. And I've been thinking that, yeah, because trust is like I'm outside the thing, like I just trust, you know, the process, the process to what it's, also to an outcome, you know. So I was thinking because I never say that Everybody say and I never say it, I trust, I'm not that person, trust, person, trusting things. I don't know how to explain, but it's more like I don't want to say I know because I don't know nothing.

34:29
But I think we I don't know how to express it's like how I, when you choose something, like we choose to live this way, we choose to live without the school, exploring other options, with open mind and with learning. But I guess it's like more, like it's different to say, like accepting that that's life, and it's like how I will evolve. They will evolve and I can see just right now I'm not trusting for nothing else, it's just I am seeing what it has to happen at this point and it's I see it like normal and they are developed normally and I'm not trusting or waiting for something else, or maybe, yes, when you say, oh, at some point they will read okay, yeah, but it's like you know it will happen well, can I just jump in on that?

35:38
because yes, sure because I I don't know what I'm saying.

35:41 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
It's interesting what you're saying, because I was also thinking, yeah, trust, it's about trust, but I and it's it's it's just nuance, but it's also about, um, accept and respect and and freedom. And not just trusting, but also allowing the other person to just be whoever the hell they want to be and live however the hell they want to live, even if they're doing something. That's not the right choice. Because this whole thing about also what I'm choosing is the right thing Well, it might be wrong, and also what's right, what's wrong, but because that depends on who's looking and all that but but the whole and and and that's why I'm jumping in here because you said, oh, at some point they will read. Well, what if they won't like, and that will also be okay, like, that's an interesting thing to explore as well like, and even if they don't, then then that like, will that be okay? That's then a question for every single person to answer for themselves. But that's very different from saying, oh, I own school, I'm cool with it, I'm trusting the process. At some point my children will read and then saying, oh, I own school, I'm cool with it and I don't know if they'll ever read. Maybe they won't ever read and that's fine too.

37:03
I mean, it's like it's just tiny nuance and the thing about um, because I think, uh, sometimes, sometimes people think unschooling is just reaching the same point through another path, and I see that a lot actually in the Danish homeschooling groups on Facebook. There's a lot of people out there saying, oh, you've got the freedom of method within the homeschooling law of Denmark. You can choose how to get there, you just need to get to the same point, and it's like well, first of Denmark, you can choose how to get there, you just need to get to the same point. And and it's like well, first of all, that's not true, that's not what the law says. But anyway, also, that's definitely not unschooling, that's definitely not. I mean, that might be homeschooling, but it's definitely not the unschooling mindset.

37:52
To like, oh, we'll just, you know, or even you know, sometimes people will take unschooling to be it's just about the kids themselves doing what they're supposed to do. Totally away from that, and we've talked about that before in another episode. I know about not expecting anything or not having any attachment to any outcome. Is that even possible? Blah, blah, blah all that. And no, it's not.

38:35
But it's just an interesting idea, I think to um yeah, like what if somebody didn't learn to read? I mean, would that be okay?

38:44 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
like could they be a good person, have a good life anyway but but the thing is like maybe I I don't know if it's a good example or not there the read thing because uh, if you think about like like a human being, like the natural develop of human being, just like an animal, okay, but in our society nowadays, for me it will be naturally in any of our families that the kid will read because it's around us. So it became like part of like a natural development because we all read and it's everywhere. So it's like he will knew how to something I don't know what. The idea like how to wash his hands, because we all wash our hands or whatever you do at your house, probably maybe, if not, then you will wonder why and then you will get deep in that, maybe or think or observe more. Why are you laughing at me?

39:46 - Sara Beale (Guest)
Well, I can attest to the fact that you can watch someone eat every day with a fork and put things in the rubbish bin and put things in the dishwasher and wash it up and not ever learn how to do those things, because everybody else is doing it, yeah, but maybe it's not a meme, it's just making me laugh because, like, I love what you say and when I was using the word trust I think I wasn't, I was using it.

40:23
You've got to say a word that people are going to understand, but, yes, I love it's true. As soon as you start using that language, then people think what you're talking about is, I've got this point over here and I'm just going to have faith that my kids are going to arrive there. That's not what I mean, obviously, because you guys know me and I love that you brought that up, because that can be misinterpreted and that is something I frequently do have to be called out on by my kids because they sniff, they've got these like very excellent noses and if they think that I have any expectation of them getting to this point here, they will tell me um, yeah, and the idea of the right thing or the wrong thing, like I just think it's such a brilliant conversation. It's like for me, this is like an exciting kind of conversation, because this is for me, this is what I mean. We say the word unschooling just because you need a word to say something I mean. But but what? What my family mean by it is probably very different to what many people who even listen to this podcast, would mean by it, um, and to really like, get to the heart of like. Where are we holding on to attachments to things? Where are we holding on to attachments to things? Where are we holding on to expectations? Is it okay to hold on to expectations? Do we actually want our kids to one day be able to load a dishwasher? Um, or is that not important? I don't, I mean, I don't even think there's an answer. Um, I do think it's interesting.

41:55
The reading thing is a really I do think it's a good example because it's something that we all understand and I think it's interesting. The reading thing is a really I do think it's a good example because it's something that we all understand, and I think there's some like things that we can pull apart here around, like what is actually part of our sorry, my notifications might keep beeping. I don't know how to turn that off on the laptop. What is our biological make makeup and our biological drive? That's probably not to read. It is, I think, to do things like walk and grasp things with our hand and, um, like, roll over and use words. But then there's these additional layers around using tools, using the tools of our culture if it wasn't reading, if if reading wasn't a thing that our culture did, we, I think we'd still walk, because humans walk um. So I just think it's like such a fascinating example, because I think I.

42:56 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I only want to say one thing. I think it's about survival, the things you need to survive in your society. You will learn that yeah, yeah and that's interesting.

43:05 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
That's why reading is such a good example, because it's something that 99.99999 percent of people are going to say oh, that is something everybody has to do and it's something where, if your children don't, you will be looked at, uh, very suspiciously and it'll be a problem for a lot of people, and it's something that it's like. It's just like it's been yeah, we did.

43:36 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
We have to wait for her to come back While we do so. Do you want me to wrap up within like 10 minutes? It's really interesting right now, but I also did promise to stay within an hour and I can't do that. I can do it within 10 minutes. One, two, three, Luna.

44:08 - Sara Beale (Guest)
So we started talking. Shall I say something? Can I talk? Is that okay? Yeah, maybe we should just continue.

44:14
Thought of a little bit edited right, anyway, oh, luna's gone, okay. So coming back to the seasons thing and bringing in the piece about acceptance that Carla introduced as well, and what I find interesting to observe in children, when they like, like, have the space to do this stuff, is that they don't seem, they don't naturally hold on to attachments or expectations and they shift through seasonal changes more easily, which doesn't mean that they don't express discomfort. Or when they're frustrated and I love how Carla brought up that thing about when they get to a new place and something's changed, they can get a little bit like, fractious for a bit, and then there's that memory of like, oh yeah, this is just, it's what we do and it's all going to be cool, um. What I've noticed about kids generally who not all kids, but kids who who are able to to do this um is that they don't, they don't hold that like in their body. They can get cranky about something, they can be frustrated. It's not attached to any great weight like it often is for older people, for us, for me, you know, I was kind of brought up in a very conventional kind of way, taught to have goals and do the things and finish the projects and my parents were endlessly frustrated that I didn't want to do that and lots of attachments, lots of expectations, lots of like painful letting go of that stuff.

45:49
As I really confusedly watched my kids just like do something and then move on. Do something, they can have a fight with their best friend. And then 10 minutes later they're like a fight with their best friend. And then 10 minutes later they're like fine, they've just moved on. And a grown-up would be like oh my god, and like agonizing, and I don't know whether to ring them and watch.

46:05
The kids are like, yeah, move on, uh, and then they get over it and it's like they could even have a fight for like ages, but then they're not, like they don't hold it in their body, it's not like in there making them sick and anxious, and they just like let it go. And to me, that's what I love about the kind of the seasons like metaphor isn't a metaphor, because even when you get to the end of one season and you might be like, oh, I'm not ready to let go of that all season, then you do and blah, blah, blah, like you leave it and then you move on, which is what I see our kids doing, and for me, that's something that I'm constantly, I guess, aspiring to, because that doesn't come necessarily. I have to remind myself oh no, that's what my kids remind me. You know that my oldest daughter will say, like it's not that deep all the time.

46:52 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
I was just going to say that.

46:57 - Sara Beale (Guest)
That's what she says, it's not that deep. That's say that that's what she says. Like, it's not that, it's not that deep, just like move on. Like, and she can get really angry about something, right, she could. She can rant about something for like an hour, maybe more, if she needs to get something out. Something's happened. Really long rant session. All my kids do it actually. They like to talk about the thing for like a really long time until I feel like my ears are going to bleed because I'm taking it all on.

47:20
And then they're like oh good now, and they're just going to get on with their day Now I've got to like, but it's like it's not that deep and to me it's just like huh, life goes.

47:42 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I feel like we're getting on the way. You know, there is this phrase I don't know in English, but in Spanish we we say this like life is what happened while you try to organize things yeah, yeah, so it's what happens while you're planning.

48:02 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I think we say in english it's a john lennon quote.

48:07 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
Okay, I mean it's, it's all over. I mean, I've always seen it as a john lennon quote life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans yeah, I've just always seen that that's a, I mean, I'm sure, like a saying in a lot of like, maybe all over the world, because, like it's kind of a, a truth.

48:26
That's the whole thing we've been talking about is, well, you know, plan with a pencil because we might plan and then stuff happens and then is it okay to let that stuff then take center stage, or are we should we, to what extent, should we be committed to the previous plan or sticking with the track because we started down this path?

48:55 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Do we have to stick to unschooling?

49:05 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
Just putting it out there, I mean, if we can question everything we can question that you can, but your kids will do whatever they want.

49:08 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I'm beyond, totally beyond, yeah but I don't see how you couldn't, because it's like it's like it's not a method, it's more like a way of viewing life, I guess. So I mean, that's, that's the same, like I think we had another episode discussing the whole thing about whether what works or not, and it's like, well, it always works, because it's not about working, it's more like how you view life. So I mean, yeah, I mean you can change. I mean yeah, I mean you can change, I guess, and become someone who really like lives in the past or is, like, really attached to outcomes.

49:47 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
If you really want to, you could kind of like fall into an obsessive-compulsive disorder, maybe I mean you, could I mean three-, three person yeah, yeah, well, I think I need to wrap up, but I just want to say one thing first into this topic, because we talked about is it okay to never learn to read, and can we have any kind of ambition or idea of an outcome on behalf of our children and I? Just, this exact theme was the reason I, for actually quite a lot of years, didn't call myself an unschooler, because I didn't want to have these discussions with the other unschoolers, because I didn't want to have these discussions with the other unschoolers. And I think I've arrived now at a point where I basically think it's better to learn to read than not learn to read. I would not think any children that didn't learn to read inside an unschooling family wouldn't have had a few pretty serious conversations with their parents about it. So when we talk about it right now the four of us and we say it's okay if you don't learn to read, I think if you're in the beginning of the path, you might stop right there and need to breathe for a while. But the reality is that if you are, if you're 16 and you're still not reading, it's a thing you know. We can't, we can't get around that. It is a thing.

51:27
So, obviously, if you have a good I said it, a good unschooling home where things are working, which means you have a good relation with your family members, especially your parents, you've had quite a few conversations with those respectful parents about why is this not a priority? Are you okay with that? And and being an unschooling mom, you would arrive at a point where, okay, this is not a priority for my child. He or she is okay with that and there are other ways to get around this. Issue of text needing to enter the brain doesn't have to be reading and and I think it's just because it could so easily be absorbed as the idea of neglect or we don't care, or you know, it's such a rare case and whenever it happens there's a lot of thought and a lot of conversation and a lot of of reality happening around it that that it's not just oh, whatever, they don't read. I don't think that that it would be a whatever situation, because it's a thing. So that's one thing and the other thing was just the reason I didn't want to call myself a non-schooler for a long time was annoyed with this.

52:49
You're not kind of allowed to have ideas of outcome or priorities or any ambitions on behalf of your children. You might want them to learn to wash their hands or to take their shoes off in some countries and keep them on in other countries, or shake hands with elderly or whatever, or maybe learn a second language, or you could have some ideas about what would be good skills in life to absorb. And if I'm not allowed to have those ideas, I'm not an unschooler and I actually can stand by that now with more confidence. This many years down the road, I still have a lot of ideas about what would be good skills to absorb in life. What would be good skills to absorb in life? And and the difference between the reason I still am an unschooler is I'm not married to the idea of all of my kids absorbing all of these things that I think are good ideas. I just think they are good ideas and I can have a respectful conversation with them about it.

53:55
You know, I think it's a good idea to learn a few languages. How would you feel about? How does this resonate with you? And some of them were really eager to learn a lot of languages and some of them couldn't care a lot. They speak too. That's fine, you know, and it's. It's about the respect and about the relation and about in what way we have ideas on behalf of our children. It's not about having them or not having them. Like you have them, sarah. If you didn't have them, your kids couldn't smell them. But then you have good conversations, respectful conversations, they know. Oh, you want me to do that. I'm totally not doing it and you'll be all right. I just thought it might be an idea and and that's the end of that story. So yeah, because that threw me off the idea of being an unschooler for a long time but I see this like unschooling because I mean you, you, you have.

54:56 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I don't say you have to, but for me it's part of the you have to. I said you have to to offer to expose.

55:05
I mean, then, if they don't see nothing, what are the? You have to leave, and to leave, you have to go out, and the things that I know. I'm not going to be quiet, I'm going to say it. This is what I like. Do you like it? Oh, I know I'm not gonna be quiet, I'm gonna say it. This is what I like. Do you like it? Oh, I know this person who speak, whatever, do you want to try? Do you like music? Do you have to offer? I see this. Maybe I, maybe I'm wrong, but I, for me, I'm, I'm being me, and this is part of unschooling, I guess. And then you let your kids be your kids, but that's about all Carla, that that was my problem.

55:40 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
If I can't have these ideas, I cannot be me, and I think it's very important that I am authentic, that I feel person why couldn't you, uh, keep your ideas?

55:51 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
I never heard about that.

55:53 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
That you cannot like, say or offer, I don't know, I think that's an interpretation of a lot of people okay okay okay, because, but and probably it's a bit late in the episode to kind of open that hand, because because it's all about the, it's all about the interpretation of things, because they I mean like, no, I know what you're talking about, because they're not, they're not interfere, because people is like I know I have met that, those people, but I I say no, that I it's like.

56:26
It's like it's because it's like the flip side of the whole, oh, we shouldn't, we shouldn't, we should be careful not to, you know, put out or that the idea comes across as, oh, whatever, because that could be like, uh, considered neglect. And then the flip side of that is oh well, if it's okay to have ideas, then I can do this and that and this and that, and that very quickly becomes manipulation and like, will you please? Bribery and stuff like it. It very quickly becomes a green card for people to do all sorts of schoolish things and have all sorts of ideas on behalf of their children, which don't stay ideas but then become. And I think that's the whole, but that's like a whole discussion in itself. I think about you know, when is it one, when is it the other? And it also doesn't matter.

57:20
I think the most important thing is what you just said, cecilia. It's like be authentic, just be your damn self. I mean everyone out there just be you, just be you, and that's what we're all trained out. I'm so sorry, my dog is like being her right now. Oh my god. But yeah, I think that's what we're all trained out of is being us and, like you say, sarah, like listening to our bodies, listening to our minds, I can taking making the decisions for us to the extent that we want and it makes sense for us, it's relevant and and interesting and whatever, and we're trained out of that. So that's why it's so hard for so many people until we unlearn all of those things and the truth sets us free. You know something?

58:15 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
well, I think the bu is a is a very um, it's a very strong ending point, um.

58:25
The group I'm living with at the moment we're having fun with the yogi tea little, uh, snippet pieces of wisdom, because they're very often make no sense.

58:35
But actually we had one yesterday that said and I think we could end it on that because it's it's like the perfect summarization it said be you, be strong and be together, and and that's actually you know, we can be authentic and be ourselves, but we have to be it with respect and together with our children If we want to do the unschooled journey in in a kind of right way. I think that's, that's the my conclusion to this problem. And I promised my friends to record for 45 minutes and now we've recorded for an hour and, uh, I think we have to wrap it up and I think we have to wrap it up, ladies. It's been a lot of fun to record these things and I think I hope we will do another season at another time, but for now I just want to say thank you for all the hours you put in and all the effort to carve out some moments where real life didn't get in the way.

59:40 - Carla Martinez (Guest)
Yeah, thank you, cecile, for hosting and thank you for these moments. I love all of them. I hope we get together again here in the podcast and outside the podcast, and it's been very my real life while we were talking here all these hours.

01:00:02 - Luna Maj Vestergaard (Guest)
Thank you, thank you, you. It's very real and I'm just gonna say I trust the process may the light shine on all of you and thank you.

01:00:10 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Thanks, ladies.

WE HOPE YOU ENJOYED THIS EPISODE