#36 Nicole Kenyon | Defying Labels and Embracing Unschooling

0:00:00 - Jesper Conrad
Welcome to Self-Directed. We are your hosts, Cecilie and Jesper Conrad, and now it's time to welcome this week's guest. Today, we're together with Nicole Kenyon, and the reason we are talking with you today is that our common friend, Sandra Dodd, wrote to me and said you know what, jesper Nicole would be a really good guest on your podcast. She is lovely, she talks to her, and we really love Sandra and things. Besides being wonderful to chat with and hang out with, then she's a knowledgeable, wonderful person. So if she recommends someone, we are like, okay, let's see where that's there. And so now you have to prove yourself to be worthy of Sandra's recommendation. 

0:00:48 - Nicole Kenyon
Wow, you didn't tell me that. 

0:00:51 - Jesper Conrad
No, no, joking aside, no, so it's wonderful to be together with you, nicole. So you are in Australia right now, right? 

0:00:59 - Nicole Kenyon
Correct, yes. 

0:01:02 - Jesper Conrad
And you didn't always live there. Maybe we should hear a little about your background first. 

0:01:10 - Nicole Kenyon
I'm originally from Switzerland. I used to be a secretary and accountant in the office and kind of broke out of that rut and came to Australia to study and kind of stayed here and then met my husband and definitely stayed then. 

0:01:35 - Cecilie Conrad
So I just read briefly your notes on what we could talk about or what your background is, and in those it said that you didn't have a lot of fun in school back in Switzerland. 

0:01:48 - Nicole Kenyon
No, I look I was a late blue-wing master. They say For me nothing made sense. I really struggled in school and you know it could have to. My parents they never put a lot of pressure with my and I bought the you know the book home with the degrees that I get. But it's not a great feeling and I remember trying to study for exams and it just wasn't going in. 

And in Switzerland at 12, you have to do like an exam and that this term if you go into a higher school or lower school. And I missed it by half a point and you know I believed that I was really dumb for a long time from that pattern of the school of failing and not comprehending that I just wasn't smart, you know. And the comments, you know you've got to be caught. That's worse, more than a big brain or all this sort of comments that you get. You kind of fall into that yourself, your belief in that. 

And it was a big change when I decumpte Australia to study. It was a huge thing to do and that's much later. That was much later at 28. Yes, so in Australia they have the this closer that when you're over 25, you have enough life experience to handle the university and so I applied, and it's a whole different story of what led me there. I do believe in science and things that gave me that much to do that, and I got in, by my surprise as well, and I was very successful. I ended up getting an international scholarship for a PhD, and they only give out three of those because I was passionate about the things that I study. I did it in a foreign language, right, so not dumb, it's just passionate and it just makes sense in a forum where I could understand, which was with animals. That was always my passion and that for me? 

0:04:23 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, no, no, Nicole, I'm just curious. You know From growing up with this self-belief, told to you about this from the school that you were not stupid but not in the smart category. So how did that affect your life and for how many years? And what made you change and actually start believe that you maybe could do something academic? 

0:04:53 - Nicole Kenyon
It had an impact. I think it had an impact with relationships, even with boyfriends that I had. That will treat me that way as well. I think it had a massive impact. Looking backwards on this, you know, what made me believe was again I believe in science, that happens in life and it just was random people who come up to me saying, oh, you're from Australia. And I was like no, I'm from Switzerland. And you know friends calling up saying hey, I've had you be Australia. I'm like no, don't think so. It was very odd. It was two years of oddness with this where I then did that step and it started with a vision board that I did for my life as well. 

I was very unhappy where I was and I believe in vision boards, you know and that was well over 25 years ago. So I just put down my dream life and I always wanted to work with animals. That was always my thing, that was where my heart was. And then the science appeared. So I had to kind of follow that and yeah, that led me there and that pattern. You know it took a while. Like in university I was still scared that I'm not good enough. You do have that doubt there that you're not good enough and things. But you know from Sandra Doth, what I learned with unschooling is that openness to learn, to not be scared to question things, not to be scared of not knowing things, that you celebrate it when you actually learn something new. You know you become a kid again and I enjoy that life very much. Yeah, so I'm not scared to just ask and say what do you mean? I don't understand. 

0:07:00 - Cecilie Conrad
I'm sitting on a question, just thinking before you were 12 years old, you were molded into a system that told you you were stupid-ish. Yes, and you're telling me. You were studying for tests and exams, and then there was this final exam at 12. Is that how the Swiss school system still works, that you're tested what every year? When does this start? 

0:07:35 - Nicole Kenyon
No, it's one day of exam when you're 12, and that then splits the school, and even though I was really good at maths, I still had to do lower maths at schools. I never had algebra or calculus then at school. But I believe what they now have is not that day of exam. They've realised that you may have a bad day right, and so now the whole year counts towards that thing, where then they determine where you can go into the upper or lower school. But yeah, it has changed from where it was. 

0:08:19 - Jesper Conrad
I just also loved what you said about being a late bloomer, because if I were to have been determined by where I was as a 12-year-old boy, I would probably also have been in the stupid school. Yes, definitely. 

0:08:41 - Cecilie Conrad
Would you have been in school at all? 

0:08:43 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was sitting and pondering about life and thinking on projects and having fun and actually never went the academic way directly in my life, and I think it's fun how authority figures in our life can affect how we self-believe. I have had a very successful career. I am smart in many, many ways as a person At least that's what the paychecks I have been getting during my life but I do not have an academic background and even today, even after being now 48, turning 49 in November, I should be not affected by it, but there is some part of me that is yeah, when it makes you want to mock you quite often Probably stupid. 

0:09:48 - Nicole Kenyon
Which is not fair. No, no, no, it's actually quite smart. I don't know. It's only a piece of paper, though. 

0:09:55 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, sometimes I believe some of me would have loved to have that stamp from a university saying oh, you're clever enough, yes, and it's just at the same time sad to acknowledge it Somehow. I would have loved not to sometimes feel stupid that I don't have a fancy stamp. 

0:10:19 - Cecilie Conrad
The thing is about universities. There's actually no reason to go if it's just for the stamp. Yes, that's right. I have a university degree and I had fun for about 10 years at the university. I loved it. I'd do it again. I'd love to do it again, actually, maybe another subject. Just get one more education. It was fun, but it has to be for the educated. I mean, it has to be because you're passionate about what you're reading, because you just want to know more, because it's fun to study, because you like the challenge. If it's just to get a nice piece of paper to hang on the wall, please go do something else with your life. I think you've done right in your life, just doing whatever felt right. Yes, you've done something for your life. 

0:11:07 - Nicole Kenyon
Yeah, it's gone now. I agree I really enjoy it, like digging deep into the subject and settling late. I was like this whole new area that lit up, that kind of connected wall. It's like another little puzzle piece how to see the world, I guess. And yeah, I definitely enjoyed that aspect of the university. 

0:11:33 - Cecilie Conrad
At this point you have to tell us what it is that you are passionate about. I mean, I did a PhD. 

0:11:39 - Nicole Kenyon
Oh, I worked on frog diseases. 

0:11:42 - Cecilie Conrad
Frog diseases yes, I worked on frog diseases Very specific. 

0:11:47 - Nicole Kenyon
It is very specific, but it was animals. Yeah, yeah. 

0:11:52 - Cecilie Conrad
My son-in-law has a T-shirt and says DILF. I think, damn. I love frogs. We have not, probably not as big as yours, but I'm a frog passion in the family. 

0:12:04 - Jesper Conrad
But how come the frog diseases are interesting? I'm like what? 

0:12:09 - Nicole Kenyon
At that point. I chose that because it was universal, it's global and I was very career-focused at that point and so I chose that subject because it would mean that I could possibly get a job anywhere I wanted to go. That was the idea when I chose that subject. You know, little did I know that when Kai came alone, I wasn't focused on being a mum or anything and I became the cluckiest mother there is when Kai came along Cluckiest, what does that? 

0:12:45 - Jesper Conrad
mean I think it's an Aussie word you have to translate oh cluckiest. 

0:12:49 - Nicole Kenyon
What does that mean? You know how. It means that you're just protective and you want to be a mum and, yes, you become clucky. You just become this mum and I absolutely loved that change, you know, and never worked with frogs again. I do animal therapy now, but yeah, it's not on frogs, not on frogs, no. 

0:13:23 - Cecilie Conrad
I think that means a lot of horses. That impressed me or intrigued me, both not, or impressed and intrigued me in the notes you sent before we started recording was that you've been on schooling since he was six months and in some ways I would dispute that as unschooling. Maybe it's a more radical choice when they are more than, let's say, six, but if you know, you knew what you were. Did you know about unschooling when he was six months old? 

0:13:56 - Nicole Kenyon
I did. I have a friend from uni and she also has a Kai, but he's five years older and she was in that unschooling journey show Isaac, and we kept talking when Kai was born and she just gave little hints about it. You know, you know things that I was saying. 

Oh, you know daycare for socialisation and she's like think again and maybe start questioning things that just you kind of verbalise because everybody says it and you say the same thing, but you haven't really thought about it or researched it right, and so I was then already looking. And then Sandra Dotty came to Cairns when I think Kai was one and a half maybe or two, and you know, that kind of helped even more that that's definitely where we wanted to go, but it started with that. It started with the food and the bedtimes and all the way we were doing this, this journey from very little. So we were very lucky that we found out about unschooling is early. It made sense. 

0:15:24 - Cecilie Conrad
To me it's just this makes total sense as soon as you get it. But we didn't really. I mean, I was fumbling my way, having all these, I know what feels right, but everything around me, every one and all structures and every narrative around me tells me otherwise. It was really hard to fight against it and be this weirdo, and I didn't succeed in doing what I felt was right. I just succeeded maybe 60%, and then I gave in to the structures for the rest of it until actually, how old was Liu? 

maybe and picking that out maybe 12 yeah yeah, our oldest was quite old and our second child was reaching school. No, we started hearing about unschooling when he was born, so she must have been six. Yeah, anyway, I didn't have it from the beginning and we didn't do it from the beginning, and when we first heard about it, especially, you thought it was the most, can I say that it's a wacko thing it's okay absolutely yeah, I'm very happy with that wacko choice. 

0:16:39 - Nicole Kenyon
No no, I think the. I think the problem is a lot of people think it's unparenting and it's so far away from unparenting and you really need to understand that the difference between unschooling and unparenting, because otherwise it goes completely wrong. We my opinion, if you think that's what it is, absolutely do you think we can define it? 

0:17:02 - Cecilie Conrad
we've had this before on the podcast. Talking about unschooling is not, unschooling is and we say that with an exclamation mark. But I'm just thinking. I want to talk to those who just heard about unschooling. I want to give them something. Maybe they feel I want to do this man, it'd be nice with all that freedom and all that passion and all that personal life. But what about? You know? I know that. Then there are mother-in-laws and siblings. 

0:17:32 - Nicole Kenyon
Yeah, I think you become. You become like a coach, and that's how I see it in an unschooling way. A good example is when Kai was about 10 and he went through a phase and he was quite mean to his dad. You know my husband and was observing it and we were walking in in the rainforest and he did something again and I asked him. I said I've noticed you're quite mean to papa, what what's going on? And he's like oh, I stop sorry, I'm like no, that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking what's going on. 

And you know, he started talking and that's kind of like that, that verbal diarrhea, what I call, which is weights, and he just talks, and he just talks and I just listen. And then certainly he was just like well, you know, he, he still does these things as if I'm a kid, like tickling me, and I'm like, ah, there it is. And I'm like so, you don't like this anymore. And he's like no, and so now I said, well, you, you have to help us, because for us that transition is probably quite tricky to see, because you're still our little boy. Can you help us? 

And it was such a beautiful moment from you. Know, you're being mean to dad, you're going to get, you know, grounded if you're going to be mean again in an unscalling way. You're actually the coach and said, oh, what's going on? And then you figured out what was going on and he turned out to, hey, can you help us? So it's a beautiful moment for me which demonstrates that I'm schooling. It is that a lot say joyful living and for me it's loveful living. And you know what love do is one of the sentence. My another friend says it doesn't do unscalling, but I always use that what would love to do, and I see that in the unscalling very much so. 

0:19:38 - Cecilie Conrad
You think you're completely right. I think a lot of parents and it's not their fault, big chunk of the narrative around children these days has to do with controlling them and managing them, and a responsible parent will teach. In my country, for some weird reason, we still have this thing you teach your child to tie his shoelaces before he's five. Oh, it's just a thing. They have to be able to tie their own shoelaces and no one really uses shoelaces anymore. We've invented Velcro about 50 years ago, but it's still a thing A responsible parent teaches. 

You know, that's this thing. Our kids have to sleep by 7.30. Yeah, all of them. And it's just. You know. I know that. I think that if you don't spend a lot of time talking to radical people and seeing and other ways of doing it and you get this little precious person into your life, you just want to do the best. And then you look around and the best is all this managing, all of this controlling all of these standards like tying shoelaces or they need to be able to brush their own teeth and they definitely have to obey. You tell them what to do and they do it and it's for some reason that's become the golden standard, so then they don't become sorry they don't become the independent thinker then do they? 

0:21:26 - Nicole Kenyon
They become like the robot thing. But it's funny when you say about shoelaces, because we before we went on holiday we had to buy shoes for my son and he's seen that between the kids shoes are too small but the men shoes are too big. And so we went to the female shoes and there was no slipping. So the shoelaces came in and you know his 12, but he's never had shoelaces because in Chobbaker, queensland, everybody just wears flip flops, right. And so we were there and he was 12. He didn't know how to do the shoelaces and the shop assistant kind of looked at us, you know, and I said, just he doesn't go to school. It never came up, he'll figure it out. You know, I took two weeks and he figured it out. It's not a big issue. You don't need to have to know it at five, you can learn it whenever it becomes relevant. 

0:22:27 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, and the only reason learning it at five is that then the teachers don't have to do it for them. 

0:22:33 - Cecilie Conrad
If they have to go to school. That's the main reason. 

0:22:37 - Nicole Kenyon
But now lots of shoes don't have the shoelaces. 

0:22:42 - Jesper Conrad
And I myself. I don't like shoes, but the only pair I have I only use them if we are in a winter place, which we are almost never. They have these elastic shoelaces. I love them. 

But I actually wanted to talk a little about these feelings you can get as a person when there is an authority telling you how you should feel about the world. 

For example, the school system told you more or less with that exam back then that you were not in the smart group. Another example is we are told as parents that it is normal for us to put our kids into kindergarten or nursery, that it's for the kids own best, it's for the socialization of the kids. And the interesting thing that I want us to talk a little about is what does it do to you when someone actually are telling you that the motherly instinct you have inside of you is wrong, that the feelings you are having are wrong. And if we start thinking about it, then it's on many, many, many levels. We are told that what we naturally feel in a situation is not correct. I just think it has a much bigger impact than people realize, because if you are actually told you cannot trust your own feelings on so many levels. It's with breastfeeding, it's with sending the kids to school and kindergarten. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? 

0:24:29 - Nicole Kenyon
I always just focus on Kai. I got rid of the noises. Is Kai happy? Is he satisfied? Does he live a joyful love, life, love, full life? And he happens to be more of an introvert. He doesn't need a lot of exchange and he was always very attached to me. So kindergarten they started three years. 

I think here he would have been completely stressed out. Yes, we know, with all the research that is, it's a huge negative impact on health, so we want to remove it. And I see him and it just loves living and I just know for us it is the right decision. I can't talk to anyone else what they think, but for us, I know that this is the perfect decision that we've done. They are different. If people expect kids that don't go to school to be the same and kids that go to school, then that is not the path for them. They are different, but we're celebrating the differences and we're not. You know, yeah, but I just knew and I focused on Kai rather than what other people were saying. And you're right, I had friends that you know think that perhaps that isn't the right path, so that you know, but I just watched Kai grow and yeah. 

0:26:21 - Cecilie Conrad
You ever get the potential question. 

0:26:24 - Nicole Kenyon
Sorry. 

0:26:26 - Cecilie Conrad
So the full potential question, it's a question we meet a lot. Will they live up to their full potential or will they fulfill their full potential? We get that question quite often. You know, are they missing out on the things? We don't force them to learn stuff, so are they missing opportunities? Do you get that question and how do you handle it If you get? 

0:26:57 - Nicole Kenyon
it. So I didn't get that question. Funny enough. But okay, no, I don't get that question. But I don't think they, their knowledge looks very different, right? A good example is weekdays. It's irrelevant for him. He still doesn't know the order. He just doesn't know the order because it's irrelevant for him. 

0:27:27 - Cecilie Conrad
One of ours still can't do it. It's the same thing, it's not relevant. 

0:27:32 - Nicole Kenyon
No, but he knows square root. He knows he loves numbers and maps. So when we do Easter we do Easter treasure hunts and he wants it quite hard. So we do, like Morse code and all sorts of things that we for him, that he is interested Not for me, oh, he should know Very different things that I know he loves, is interested in, we put into the treasure hunt. You do have to expose them. So you do have to provide that. What Sandra Dot always says provide a rich environment so learning can occur. That is vital. But it provides the things that they are interested in. At the moment he likes baking. So you know we we got a few baking things and I got him a baking cook book because she was in Masterchef and he really liked her. So it just provides more of that stuff. Right that they're interested, and I think then learning comes naturally in a different way, you know. 

0:28:46 - Cecilie Conrad
Is there anything that you would be worried if he didn't learn it? No, because I know he read or I know that this is specific child and we're not. 

0:29:00 - Nicole Kenyon
Yes. 

0:29:01 - Cecilie Conrad
Yes, trying not to talk about him because he has his privacy, but unschooling mom. So, mom, is there anything where you would say when he's 19, I would like him to be able to XYZ. 

0:29:15 - Nicole Kenyon
Hand writing is a big topic at the moment because, again, this you know, it's all typing right Nowadays they can handwriting. 

0:29:27 - Cecilie Conrad
So what do you think about it? Handwriting. 

0:29:32 - Nicole Kenyon
Well, if it will, there's only very little information. And then again, if you look at the GP, I can't write. I can't read his handwriting. What they write it's like it's not readable. And it becomes obviously relevant. Nowadays A lot of it is digital. But again, when he may need it because he needs to fill out forms, I know he will sit down and like okay, and handwriting is the one thing, right, that needs practice because it's like a motor's things. Reading not so much Reading is a development thing. Certainly things will click and it will happen. It just comes. 

So we never did the ABC with him. He never liked me reading bedtime stories. He would literally close the book and would throw it. He did not like. He loved me counting his toes in different languages. That was our bedtime routine, but not reading stories. And I was interested to see how is he going to actually learn to read. And we it started with Minecraft. He wanted to label the chests and I helped him and I would just say the letters, abc. I didn't sound that much. I said ABC, blah, blah, blah and then later I could say the letters and he could type it and then later he would guess it. And then one morning he came and said how can I read this to you? And I said yeah, sure, and I thought he might have like memorized something. And he had his iPad. He said Microsoft update and I'm like, okay, you can read. 

0:31:30 - Cecilie Conrad
And when? How old was he? Can I ask that how old was he when he read the Microsoft update? 

0:31:40 - Nicole Kenyon
I think so. Yeah, I don't know, I think it was seven or eight. 

0:31:46 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, yeah, around eight, yeah, and I don't know lies for for listeners, that not all kids read at six. 

0:31:57 - Nicole Kenyon
No, they don't. He definitely didn't read at six, I think it was eight, and I believe that is even in the unschooling. There is a graph right. That's kind of in the medium range. So there are some that are later. You know they are the famous people that they couldn't read until 1213. And they went to school. Right, it's not that they didn't go to school there is some examples without reading. 

0:32:30 - Jesper Conrad
Can we talk a little about doubt? The reason I ask is I'm sitting and being almost envious so I'm like, ah, she must have been in doubt sometimes, because we first met it during our path of having our kids and we started more classically homeschooling and I was very, very afraid of it all in this style and I was the one having the face outwards, needing to go to work, and I felt I had to defend myself against people and all that. 

So it's honestly a little easier in some ways being the one being at home, but it sounded like you feel like disputing that? Yeah, but you can sit comfortably Go for the question, but can we? It sounds like that you had the trust in unschooling very strong. 

0:33:28 - Nicole Kenyon
I did but I also I called them wobbles. We all have wobbles, absolutely, I did have them too. But I think that's where the de-schooling comes in. Each time when there is a wobble when you just look at it and dive into it more, is it, you know, are we doing the right thing? Technology is a big thing. I remember that there was a face where he would have his iPad but then he would do play and he would do this and he would do that, and then suddenly there was a face where it was really right on the iPad and that was a big wobble. For me it's like, oh my God, you know, is this the working? And I just did a lot of de-schooling and looked at research about computer games and etc. Etc. And until that wobble subsided where I felt like no, I can trust him, he knows, and yeah, that's just. 

0:34:37 - Cecilie Conrad
I call them wobbles, but I think we all do because it is yeah, we're not like this or like this. 

0:34:42 - Nicole Kenyon
They're out of the ordinary days, out of ordinary ways of living. Right, they're not normal like everybody else is, and so, yeah, sometimes you do have a wobble, but it comes back to. Is your child happy? You know they satisfy, do they live a joyful, loveful life? And I return back to that as well, generally, because you can be the smartest person in the world and have a high degree and have an absolute terrible life. 

0:35:22 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah. 

0:35:22 - Cecilie Conrad
But it is complicated to walk upstream, isn't it? I mean, we can all agree that personal freedom is the core and that allows for a joyful, loving life where you can be passionate about what you're doing, which is the only thing that basically makes sense. It's not hard once we're in agreement here, but then it's still walking upstream and you're still within a culture full of this narrative that you should have done something else, the kids should have done something else, they should be somewhere else in their lives, and I quite frequently meet smart, nice, wonderful people who don't get this, who think we are completely bunkers and we're letting our kids down. 

And I would like to listen to them and I would like to be good at answering them. And I am getting better. I'm 12 years down the road of run schooling, so of course I can defend myself by now. But I also get sometimes moments of doubt and confusion because I am living a life upstream. It is walking the opposite direction to everyone else and it's not easy. 

0:36:38 - Nicole Kenyon
No, I think it's well being in Europe. It's a bit more upstream than it is. There's a lot of homeschoolers in Australia, right, because of the distance. So that's first thing is very normal, homeschooling is very normal. There's a lot there and there's homeschooling groups and schooling not so much. But I don't tell many people about homeschooling. I don't, you know fast-switchers, homeschoolers for many, many people, because, again, that I don't need to expose, I guess, our family to criticism when they don't really understand what it is really about. 

0:37:28 - Cecilie Conrad
So, yeah, Well, I try to avoid it to a certain point if it's not relevant to me to have the discussion. But sometimes you're down at a wedding and you have someone you're sitting next to or sharing a table with and you're going to be there for the next six hours, and they ask the question so what do you do? And I say I travel the world with my kids. And then some point the school question comes up. So what about school? How can they study? And we say we are in school. I mean, I can't pretend, I'm not going to lie about it. 

0:38:01 - Nicole Kenyon
No, I don't lie either. 

0:38:02 - Cecilie Conrad
I study at home in an umbrella school or non-line school. They don't no or do, but only sometimes. So in some situation I end up you know, could also be a good friend of mine remarries and there's a new person in our circles and at some point I have to say we're on school, we just let them do whatever they want, basically. And then these questions come and I have to not defend it, but I have to say either you accept this and we talk about something else, or you allow me to speak for the next three hours, because you're not going to get it in 15 minutes. 

0:38:42 - Nicole Kenyon
Or is I just talk about what Kai loves and learns? So you know my parents from Switzerland I was raised very traditional, quite a strict upbringing, and you know they still don't grasp the concept of unscalling, but we do talk a lot about what he is learning, what he's interested in, what he can do and things like that. To ease, I see they are, you know they want the best of their grandchild he's beyond the grandchild of both sides and so they want the best as well. And you know, by showing them hey, you know he's doing this and he's got his own YouTube channel now when he does this and they then see the things that he's doing, yeah, we call that speaking education. 

0:39:45 - Cecilie Conrad
This conversation has been cut short a little bit, but sometimes life happens and we are parked in a place where we have to move. 

0:39:54 - Jesper Conrad
And for the listeners following. We are on our way to the Camino Park in a campsite in France and a lady just came and said you have to be out in 10 minutes. So, it will be a little abruptly ending, but we will talk with Nicole again another time. Thanks a lot for your time. 

0:40:10 - Nicole Kenyon
I love talking to you, thank you. 

0:40:13 - Jesper Conrad
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