E31 - Cecilie & Jesper Conrad | Family Travel and Unschooling - Artist Date

0:00:13 - Jesper Conrad
In the summer of 2021, we were in Istanbul and we met another traveling couple, Pedro and Iana. Pedro is a drummer and Jana is a dancer, and they started podcasting way before us and actually they are a chill, cozy way of creating a podcast. In spite of us to do our own, Pedro and Iana have kind of said yes to us sharing the episode they recorded with us, so the following is an episode of Petra and Jana's podcast series called Artistic. We hope you will like the dialogue and I recommend you check them out. I have shared a lot of links to all the cool projects in the show notes, and now it's time for the podcast episode called Artistic Family Travel and Unschooling, where Cecilia and I get to talk a lot. We loved it. Thank you, Iana, thank you Pedro, and now I hope you will enjoy the dialogue.

0:01:08 - Pedro Bonatto
Hello and welcome to the third episode of Artistic Date. I am Pedro Bonatto.

0:01:14 - Iana Komarnytska,
Jana Komarnicka.

0:01:16 - Pedro Bonatto
And we're joined. Today is the first episode that we actually have guests that we met here in Istanbul, and that's really cool. So quickly we're actually talking just before we started recording about two names.

0:01:28 - Cecilie Conrad
So Jesper and Cecilia.

0:01:31 - Pedro Bonatto
And you guys are dating and you're actually talking about like, oh, how should I pronounce your name? And you had like very casual, like, however you pronounce your name is cool right.

0:01:40 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, as long as I can Recognize it, you can do the same twice.

0:01:46 - Pedro Bonatto
Right, yeah, so we were like just to if you're new to the show, welcome. Like this is our third recording with me and Jana and basically last week we met you guys in this small little like artsy. It was called Kafer Aga Madrasa. Kafer Aga Madrasa is this little very cute like spot that has been around since the times of 1559.

1559. And now it's like a little art space and you guys walked in with your family, like with your three kids, and then we started chatting and you guys have such a cool like experience. It is totally related to some things that we were actually thinking about, which is traveling with kids and your approach to teaching. Then I thought, oh, let's chat and talk about and see how the conversation goes. So, welcome to the show.

0:02:36 - Jesper Conrad
Thank you and honor to be here as we are home.

0:02:42 - Cecilie Conrad
Very honor to sit in my rented couch.

0:02:45 - Pedro Bonatto
Yes, for seeing is like. So we should mention that you guys have been long term travelers and you travel with your kids which is awesome of different age ranges Would have been very, very unawesome to leave them at home. Yeah, and you travel like long term and you actually like, and you have a different approach to education which is great. So then let's get into it.

0:03:13 - Iana Komarnytska,
How did ever since started for in terms of like long travels, like when was your first in a long travel?

0:03:19 - Cecilie Conrad
Is this mindset oh, let's travel for a long time, I'll say it's a very hard question to answer because always when something, when you make a decision or start a project, there will be multiple reasons and multiple explanations for why did I end up having this as a life goal or having this as a core value? So there couldn't be like one answer. I could give your whole list of answers. So maybe it was when my grandmother went to Iran 70 years ago with her family and stayed there for almost two years and it had a great impact on our family, like the whole family identity was very much influenced by this time in what is now Iran, which was then Persia. Maybe it was the road trips when I was a kid. Maybe it was something magical about our relation. We always talked about travelling when we met. We had like half a day of not working and not cleaning, and not you know best feeding.

0:04:28 - Jesper Conrad
Then we would start talking about travelling.

0:04:31 - Cecilie Conrad
So then it would be about travelling, it would always be about travelling. Maybe it was because I beat cancer ten years ago and really felt 11 out of 5.

0:04:41 - Iana Komarnytska,
11 out of 5.

0:04:41 - Cecilie Conrad
11 out of 5. Yeah, oh, wow.

0:04:44 - Cecilie Conrad
When I had cancer I thought, if I beat this, I will not want to live through another Danish winter because I just hate Nordic winters, but before that we started actually to take one month long winter vacations.

0:05:00 - Jesper Conrad
It was after the camp no.

0:05:02 - Cecilie Conrad
Thailand and Sydney Okay, before and after.

0:05:06 - Jesper Conrad
Before and after.

0:05:07 - Cecilie Conrad
But after we did it every year.

0:05:08 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, we did it every year, and the winters in Denmark are beautiful, if you like great weather and a lot of If you can afford a good couch.

Yeah, I mean no, just joking aside. It is very long winter in Denmark. It is not Nordic enough to be snow-filled and beautiful. We have like a couple of weeks of snow and the rest is just great. We had one winter, and I believe it was the. Was it the winter before we left, maybe? Yeah, there was in January seven hours of sunshine in a whole month, and if that's not enough to kill yourself, then I don't know what yeah.

0:05:46 - Iana Komarnytska,
We can relate to it.

0:05:47 - Pedro Bonatto
We can relate to it, yeah because we were living in Canada for like ten years and stuff. In Toronto it's like it snows but it's a flat city so you can't even go out to snowboard or anything and it's brutal, not even just brutal cold, but it's long, it drags on, it's so long.

0:06:08 - Cecilie Conrad
That's. The other thing about the Nordic winter is that it's very long.

0:06:11 - Jesper Conrad
It starts in but it's a stream and then it's beautiful if you go a couple of hundred kilometers up, because then it's white. At least you have snow.

0:06:16 - Cecilie Conrad
You have the snow and then you have light, and we just have rain and rain weather and cold and we hate it, and especially I hate it very much.

0:06:26 - Jesper Conrad
But to answer the question on some of the other points, what happened was Cecilia beat cancer in that period when she was hospitalized. I was home alone back then with three kids. She survived and we got a surprise with Fjord, who is our youngest he's nine now and that year, when Cecilia was pregnant, we realized the pain of having four children and trying to take public transportation. We were living in the big city.

0:06:58 - Cecilie Conrad
We didn't have a driver's license. We were the same age, so we were 37 and we couldn't drive a car.

0:07:05 - Jesper Conrad
Couldn't drive a car.

0:07:06 - Cecilie Conrad
But we lived in the middle of Copenhagen so we didn't need to drive a car. We would use our bike. We had a cargo bike for the kids. We would just take the train if we needed to go out of town.

0:07:15 - Jesper Conrad
But we had an experience one day where we had two children on the outside of a train and the rest of us inside and we were like, yeah, we'd live on a stone. Well, maybe.

0:07:27 - Cecilie Conrad
I don't know it was actually. We were so many people when we got to the fourth child no, actually, even with three children and one dog that sometimes we could hardly get into the train before the train would leave.

0:07:41 - Jesper Conrad
So we were like okay, let's go If you have suitcases and stuff.

0:07:43 - Cecilie Conrad
You're going on vacation and you have a lot of stuff, you have a lot of kids, you have a dog, you have a wagon for the children and then you know, of course we didn't leave them behind there, but we hardly got it. So when I got pregnant, just after cancer, I was still bald, I was still really weak and I realized, okay, I'm going to have a child. I said I need three things. I need a fully automatic espresso machine.

0:08:08 - Jesper Conrad
And she got that.

0:08:10 - Cecilie Conrad
Because I have to be able to get espresso using only one hand. And it means to grind the coffee, not an espresso, I had the perfect run before, but you need both hands to make a good espresso, and I was like I'm not going through another year of not having coffee. Okay, then I need what's it called the machine that dries your clothes.

0:08:32 - Jesper Conrad
Oh, dryer, just a dryer, yeah.

0:08:35 - Cecilie Conrad
So we would hang our laundry because we wanted to be sustainable and I was like, okay, four children, I need a dryer. I live in a country where it rains all the time. I can't do this. I need a dryer and I need a car.

0:08:47 - Jesper Conrad
I can't do it anymore, and you know the fourth thing was that you didn't want to go to work anymore.

0:08:51 - Cecilie Conrad
No, that was after cancer. Well, that was before the fourth child. With cancer. I said I'm never going to work again. I'm just not going to do it, I'm never going to do winter again, I'm never going to work again and I also promised I'm not going to complain. Those three together really changed my life. They are hard Not working. We'll give you some options.

0:09:18 - Jesper Conrad
I was not having a boss, but it's not having a boss. Yes, it's not not working.

0:09:22 - Cecilie Conrad
It's not not working. Of course it is.

0:09:24 - Jesper Conrad
So we got the driver's license and when Fjord was four months old, we rented out our house for three months and took a three month road trip to Europe and we haven't driven a car before, more or less. So we learned how to drive and what we understood, and that travel was different things. One of them was it's not fun to be on vacation for three months. Honestly, I don't like it. We saw a lot of beautiful places.

0:09:54 - Cecilie Conrad
And it was fun. It was fun.

0:09:57 - Jesper Conrad
But three months is a really long vacation and I, for example, I need stuff to do, otherwise my family gets tired of me because I get annoying. Very, very happy. And I can relate I had the jokes you know the quality, they just know it.

0:10:09 - Cecilie Conrad
And at some point you're like, okay, I'm going out for coffee and then you make up some projects. You want to work on, and then we joined each other in two hours from that, but back then it was in 12th.

0:10:30 - Jesper Conrad
Then we kept talking about it but it wasn't in was really in our mind that it was possible.

0:10:35 - Cecilie Conrad
You don't have a chance. Well, that was before 12th.

0:10:38 - Jesper Conrad
It wasn't really in our mind that it was possible to travel full time, not having a day-to-day office and unschooling the kids. So what happened was that Storm, our oldest boy, he's 15. We have a grown-up daughter, 22. She was in a free school, but he went to us and said that he didn't want to go to school.

0:11:04 - Cecilie Conrad
And he said it so nicely. He just said you know, mom and dad, this whole school thing, I don't think it's for me.

0:11:12 - Jesper Conrad
It's not the right choice.

0:11:15 - Cecilie Conrad
It's not for me. Other kids maybe, but me no.

0:11:18 - Pedro Bonatto
He has been going to school until then, or never, so in.

0:11:23 - Cecilie Conrad
Denmark, we call it school after six years old.

For that we call it kindergarten and they were in. So we have now, in total, four children 22 years old living in Copenhagen, 15 traveling with us, 12 traveling with us and nine traveling with us, and the two in the middle they were in kindergarten before I had cancer, and after the cancer we took them home Because the thing was that after the treatment of the cancer we didn't know if it was gone. I had leukemia and you cannot measure if it's still there. You have to wait and see. So when I came back after six months in the hospital, we didn't know if I was staying or if it was just one month and I'm going back. And you know, we didn't know.

My prognosis was really bad and, of course, all we wanted was to be together in the time that we had. So we took the kids out of kindergarten. The big one wanted to stay in school, and then I got pregnant and we had the fourth one. So after this road trip he just talked about was the time for our oldest son now 15, to start what we call school in Denmark after six years old, which is mandatory. It's not mandatory, but education is mandatory at this point. And then he said I don't think it's really, and we were like, hmm took a little time, some of us listened better Cecilia listened better.

Some of us thought, cool, I tried.

0:12:54 - Jesper Conrad
I was like no, but I was crazy with you Of course you go to school, because I was very much more in the box than Cecilia was.

0:13:02 - Cecilie Conrad
So my parents are kind of wild and crazy, yeah, and I'm from a suburb in Denmark. And these parents are awesome, but more like.

0:13:11 - Jesper Conrad
And so it wasn't so it took me so first Cecilia.

0:13:15 - Pedro Bonatto
I think I'm not normal. Your parents, no, no, not in that way. Which parents are normal?

0:13:20 - Cecilie Conrad
No, but just you know, it sounds almost offensive. But, they lived in a house and they did the jobs and things were more like what you would imagine a family life.

0:13:29 - Jesper Conrad
And then in my world kids went to school. I went to school and it was like it was good for me. It must be good for you.

0:13:37 - Cecilie Conrad
And I had.

0:13:38 - Jesper Conrad
No, actually one of those kids had an, okay, perfectly happy school time I didn't listen, so I was fine. No, but so it took me some time, but we tried to talk him into it.

0:13:50 - Cecilie Conrad
So we're trying to answer why we started full time traveling.

0:13:54 - Jesper Conrad
No okay, okay, I will speed it up then.

0:13:56 - Cecilie Conrad
No, no, no, no. That's really cool. So what happened was we listened?

0:13:59 - Jesper Conrad
But, that's what I told you.

0:14:01 - Cecilie Conrad
It has a lot of things going together to this point.

0:14:06 - Jesper Conrad
We listened to him and for me it was like Cecilia was like let us do it, and I was like no, no, no, okay, we can do it one year. I mean, you're six years old, you can start one year later and nothing will get hurt. I thought you said six months.

0:14:20 - Cecilie Conrad
Okay, maybe I said six months, but still after a week or two I was like yeah, the funny thing is that it took him a long time a long time like three or four weeks to accept. Okay, let's try it, let's not put him to school and let's check it out for six months, but then you have to teach him how to read and write. He was a little more scared and I was like yeah, let's just live in the flow.

But then after, maybe in one or two months of homeschooling, he completely let go. He was like this is just life. Yeah, we just live. And I got stuck with this idea that I had to teach them everything. And it took me. Maybe it's here, or two to let go of the whole idea of schooling and, just you know, start living. I don't know, it was just maybe because it was more at that point. So my responsibility because you were gone in the office all day and I was home with the kids.

So if they never learned to read and write, it would reflect back on me, would be my response, not reflect them. But you know, be my kids having this problem and it would be my fault because of course he couldn't teach them as he was not there. So it took two years, something like that, before we realized. And you know to just let go.

0:15:41 - Jesper Conrad
And then being, being parents, you have responsibilities and for each child you have different responsibilities. And we had a grown-up daughter who is 22 now and she really loved you live in Copenhagen and so we could see she had an education she wanted to do and we could look at our life like from the above and say, okay, if we ever want to go and try to travel, then there's a room here. And that room was when she was finished with her youth education which changed a side story to that a little later and and then, before storms, turned too old. I mean, would you travel with your parents when you're 21, 18, 19?

0:16:27 - Cecilie Conrad
Maybe not so maybe if you already are doing, it, then you could maybe Explore and go back.

0:16:34 - Jesper Conrad
So we knew that once he finished high school, then we had a room of three to four years where we could travel at least, because if he wanted a youth education classical youth education he should start this summer. He doesn't he. He studies life and he works and he is having a lot of fun. So there was this room, and what really happened also was it became more and more weird for me to go to work because our oldest daughter she took a leap year and and the Cecilia was home, didn't work, and the three kids were home, didn't work, and the dog Seriously didn't work, and so every morning and the other dog was just a puppy.

0:17:16 - Cecilie Conrad
That was just a puppy, made nothing.

0:17:19 - Jesper Conrad
So every day I went to an office, leaving my family behind. That is really strange and and it felt in the end like I was the reason that we have to stay in Denmark because I had a day job. So we actually took a talk in 15. I think it was when we looked at the timeframe and that and said to ourselves Okay, we need to change this. So we made a plan that inside three years, we wanted to have built up the almost the same amount of income on the side as it did when going to work, because one thing is being a normal Nomad, digital nomad nowadays, where it's like oh, you're digital nomad, how many do you need to Provide for?

one one person on a budget in Thailand, okay.

0:18:08 - Cecilie Conrad
No, no, that's doable.

0:18:10 - Jesper Conrad
That's doable, but but to take the plug, I didn't have the balls to just say okay, you know. Thank you, it was wonderful working for you guys. Now we just leave and then not knowing how to feed the family, so we use three years to build up income on design.

0:18:26 - Cecilie Conrad
But it was also three years because our oldest daughter, she, got accepted into a school for writers which is a very you know, very good one in in Copenhagen, and it takes only is it 12 students every second year and she was the youngest one to ever be accepted and it was like a really a great honor and a great, great opportunity for her, and she was only 16 at the time. So of course we wouldn't leave her 16 years old and and, and we couldn't tell her you can do that education somewhere else.

No, she couldn't know very special talent, I mean she's very talented and if you're if you're that talented a writer, usually you write in your own language. So she's narrowed down to, and she was already accepted at the school. So we thought, okay, then we have this time, the two years that she's studying at the university Writing. We're staying put, but we're gonna make the money, not to save up money but to have a steady income. So we feel comfortable leaving. And Then there's the boss. Oh yeah, maybe we should talk about a little about the boss.

0:19:34 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah it's interesting because it's on your website. Actually, we should just mention to people that, like you guys have like a very cool, like a website that has like a lot of writing from you guys and has a yeah, and they have like that cool photo of you guys in the and the red bus. Yeah, I guess we could talk about that a little bit.

0:19:54 - Cecilie Conrad
So now we are at the point where we have decided to go full-time traveling and we also know more or less when we're gonna do it, because we're gonna have to wait those two years for this education. And so it makes things more specific and we started discussing how we would travel, because there are so many styles. You could also do slow traveling, say, okay, I go to this place, I rent a place for six months, I get to know this country in its language, some people even send their kids to the local school and, and then after six months we relocate and we do something else, or we could go backpacking, or we could, you know, buy a Campavan, or there's so many ways to do it. And we decided that it would be more Feel more secure and homey for the kids if we traveled in some kind of home and we explored.

We already had a converted man? Yeah, and we also explored.

0:20:57 - Jesper Conrad
Should it be a boat? But I don't know how to sail and it limits also your freedom with a boat because you're gonna go from harbor to harbor and I'm afraid of the big ocean, so we would like harbor to harbor along the coast.

0:21:12 - Cecilie Conrad
That was a really bad plan. The boat, of course you can walk, but you know, I'll go that far.

0:21:18 - Jesper Conrad
So the bus was actually the most logical choice.

0:21:21 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, then it could have been a camper van, but there's something about the camper van, is this and they're wonderful for two or three weeks also, but it's some people do awesome things in camp and

the circus family for example they. I mean it's not like, but it's not for us. It was very clear Inside a camper van he would Walk into because they're made like the toilet in an airplane. Yes, man, in a good way very efficient, very small little things you open and do but also the windows, the windows. Break it and you know.

0:21:58 - Pedro Bonatto
The bull in the China, but the thing with the bus was we we.

0:22:03 - Cecilie Conrad
We actually talked about it in the start that maybe it would just be a ticket out of the day-to-day work actually, we realized that, whatever way we get out of this life that we have now into the other life, the nomadic life, it's just, you know, bridge, and it doesn't have to be our style forever because we can't know what it will do to us to be nomadic. We just, we just know that we want this change and we had a beautiful life in Copenhagen. Of course it sucks to go to the office, but it wasn't I have a great house.

We had great friends. We still have the friends. We don't have the house anymore. The city is, of course it's. Copenhagen is wonderful, so it was hard to leave, but we just felt now We've been here for 40 years. Right and the planet is so big and if we only go six weeks every summer, there's a limit to how much?

can we? Yeah, we wanted to do this full-time life. There was this guy we discussed it with. He said you know, and I don't know, 2017. He was three weeks in Thailand and he remembered every moment of it, and the other 40 something weeks is Just going to work. It's the same.

Yeah so we wanted this life where you're awake. I told you when you came here, I'm awake all the time. It's like I'm. So Istanbul if I can say something about Istanbul in the middle of our story we're in Istanbul and I'm awake all the time, like I am when I travel. It's so stimulating for the brain. I get new ideas, new inspiration, new questions, new sentiments, new vibrations. I pick up all the time here and it's a bit like dreaming. It's wobbly in a way. So I'm awake and sleeping, but I'm not numb and I'm not in any routine and I'm not like just doing, you know, a press repeat every morning because this symbol is crazy, but in a good way, but in a crazy way. So this is what we wanted. We wanted this ever-changing life, but we didn't know how do we want to do it.

0:24:25 - Jesper Conrad
And also we talked about the security with the children.

0:24:28 - Cecilie Conrad
OK, if we can leave in the bus, then we're out, and then we'll have to see. So couldn't be a camper man, we had to get a big old bus. We wanted a veteran because he liked the little bus we met some people in Copenhagen who had a wonderful bus and I was like I want that it's beautiful and I when. I see something I want you woke me up some night.

0:24:55 - Jesper Conrad
Oh yeah, I was sitting drinking red wine with a friend when I found this bus and it was like we need to go to Sweden to buy a bus and she's like it's Sunday morning.

0:25:04 - Cecilie Conrad
Two in the night. Why are you waking up?

0:25:06 - Jesper Conrad
I found the bus, yeah, and it's like OK, OK, can we?

0:25:09 - Iana Komarnytska,
talk about tomorrow. Can we talk about it tomorrow?

0:25:11 - Cecilie Conrad
after coffee preferably.

0:25:13 - Jesper Conrad
No. But then we went on the first day and boarded and it was. I cried on the way home because the feeling of seeing the ticket out of that life. I went to work for 20 years in an office. I have worked in the media industry. I've been blessed, I have wonderful tasks and wonderful colleagues, but it has not been being together with my family. It has been together with people I haven't chosen in my life and I think that's one of the biggest difference of this traveling to choose whom to be together in. But the bus is more or less. It was a ticket out. Now it stands in. We traveled in it for a couple of months and then we fell in love with a place and then we tried to leave and it was in Animal Sanctuary where we packed the bus for one week.

0:26:06 - Cecilie Conrad
So the plan was to stay one or two weeks.

0:26:10 - Pedro Bonatto
In this animal sanctuary is in Spain. This is in northern Spain, yeah, this is where we traveled the bus First.

0:26:15 - Cecilie Conrad
we rebuilt the bus for a very long time.

0:26:19 - Jesper Conrad
Only three months.

0:26:20 - Cecilie Conrad
Too much for me. And then we traveled the bus for another three months and so we came to this animal sanctuary and something happened there. The plan was to stay two weeks, and then we stayed a little longer and they started inviting us for the Christmas party and we were like, but that's in five weeks from now, yeah. And then we wanted to go to the Canary Islands for winter, so we asked can we leave the bus here and fly and come back? We did that, and then we came back, and then we really liked it and they told us that they were going to tear down the bridge so we could never leave. They really liked having us there.

So we felt welcome and we felt at home. And then, unfortunately, my mother died and we had to fly back to Denmark, stayed for a month and a half trouble shooting and a lot of things happened in my family when my mother died. And then we came back to the bus in Spain and I just needed a break. I was so exhausted because my whole process of grieving my mother's death had just been on hold while I was in Denmark Troubleshooting the whole situation. So I came back personally exhausted and I just needed to look at the horizon for a while.

So I did that and I was still shaken when he started saying how do I have to go Now? We should start the bus and go. We bought this bus to travel and we should start it. And I was like I feel we shouldn't and he was like no, you just tie it, let's go. You know I felt we shouldn't, you felt we should and you know you can't follow two different feelings. So we tried, but basically, without telling all of the stories of the bus, the bus didn't want to go. Every time we started the bus or tried to start the bus, something happened. First it was my mother leaving the planet.

0:28:22 - Jesper Conrad
Second time I broke a window against the tree. Second time it was a tree entering the bus through the window Third time, if the tire was flat.

0:28:29 - Cecilie Conrad
Then there was the battery.

0:28:31 - Jesper Conrad
Battery dead and then a air compression thing didn't work. Everything works now and the bus can't be.

0:28:38 - Cecilie Conrad
The bus is perfect, I can drive now, but we're not going to do it. No, we have accepted the bus most to stay there it has actually working on buying the piece of land where it's parked. So it can be happy to make it happy because it's an old lady, it's older than me, it's very, very beautiful.

0:28:55 - Jesper Conrad
But now we also have a. We have a base three to four months, maybe five months COVID came and was a little longer but we have a home in Spain and we can always return to it and with our lifestyle.

0:29:10 - Cecilie Conrad
And we can move it if we want to.

0:29:12 - Jesper Conrad
But until now. We don't want to. It's a good place to come back to. We're there three to five months a year, so it's like one and a half months.

0:29:22 - Cecilie Conrad
You say it like we have routines. We don't have routines.

0:29:25 - Jesper Conrad
But the feeling is we'll return. We will go to Denmark in August, then we will go back there, be there for one or two months, then we will leave over the winter, because when you can choose where you want to be, then there's no reason to be in Spain in the winter. And then we will go, then we'll come back, because we have friends, we have family, not family.

0:29:48 - Cecilie Conrad
They feel like family but we have the animals.

0:29:51 - Jesper Conrad
And some of the animals have been given names after our children have asked. We have been to the birds of donkeys and before we left Spain this time we picked sad if you call that a picklet for almost a month because it was pre-Natal, born too early so I slept with it in the night. And so this place alone give us so many experiences and we volunteer a time, help them with the donation program, and our kids are helping them learning how to raise animals. It's just awesome.

0:30:29 - Cecilie Conrad
And it still feels like traveling. I mean, it still feels like an adventure to be there and the funny thing is it's called Mun Lavasa, which in Catalan means the world around the pond.

So, we wanted to travel the world and we got to the world with our bus and then we just realized the bus shouldn't be a limitation, it should be a solution, and it seems that what happened to our family is that the bus is a base. It feels like home. We call it home when we come to the bus and then we stay for whatever time we want and how you travel now, so we also have a van. Actually we have two beds. You also have bikes. We started with here.

0:31:11 - Jesper Conrad
No, we started with the bus, with bikes, and then we bought a van, and then we bought a Mercedes Sprinter which we are going to rebuild because the Sprinter is the new project, so for now we travel in the Volkswagen Multivan, which has seven seats and the Vistafalia pop top.

0:31:32 - Cecilie Conrad
So if we need to sleep in it we can do it, but it's a little so the kids are not very small anymore, so when we sleep in the van, if it's more than 28 degrees outside it's kind of hard to sleep in the van and of course it's a narrow space and we don't travel with a lot of stuff anymore, but we still travel with musical instruments and five people.

We're five people, we all need clothes, and so I mean we learn all the time, but also we travel with our life, so that's why we bring the musical instruments. We also travel with a high speed blender because we really enjoy having our smoothies and our hummus and a milk frother, because you need good milk for her coffee.

We have a built-in kitchen in the van, like you pull out some drawers in the back and so we have a lot of kitchen stuff there, because we're also vegan and we don't eat gluten, so cooking is very often necessary.

0:32:29 - Jesper Conrad
I mean it's easier to travel with a pot.

0:32:31 - Cecilie Conrad
you know how to cook it, so we bring our own pot.

0:32:36 - Cecilie Conrad
So, yeah, I have a big pot that I know. If I cook riches in this and it's full, we will all be happy. And I have my own, yeah.

0:32:46 - Jesper Conrad
So that was a long answer to the question about the pot. How did we start?

0:32:50 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, that was how.

0:32:55 - Pedro Bonatto
That was how it's quite interesting and fascinating, Like when we met before. That's one of the great things about this, like having these conversations and interviews because I did not know about your cancer and your experience, like working, like leaving the family and all that. It's not those things that come up like oh, by the way, I had.

0:33:14 - Cecilie Conrad
Over the first cup of tea you had. I think it was also what our second day in Istanbul.

0:33:20 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah. We were still kind of cultural and there is something interesting about choosing the home school. That's our dog jumping in.

0:33:34 - Pedro Bonatto
So it's basically traveling with three kids and the dog and the instruments and the cooking material.

0:33:41 - Jesper Conrad
It's really quick. Oh yeah, it's very packed.

0:33:43 - Pedro Bonatto
That's why we wanted a seven-meat Mine.

0:33:45 - Cecilie Conrad
I mean, then we don't have as much yeah.

0:33:49 - Pedro Bonatto
As if right now we are in like very lovely, like Airbnb apartment that you guys rented out here. Like that's one sort of like this one of the tips for traveling shows just about people like lifestyle, all the stuff we're doing. But it's an interesting thing that people sometimes they don't consider Like, even though it's so prominent around the world, people don't know that you can just search for places. See, I want this kind of out to the whole apartment for myself that has, like, basically full kitchen and some decoration and like nice and you actually feel at home if you want on that place.

0:34:23 - Jesper Conrad
One of the things we actually do is, as we travel with our life and it's not on vacation, then there's two things. One is we like to come back. For example, there is a vacation house in Denmark we have rented right now two or three times and we might do it again, because it helps also the children. When you travel with we, you need to make sure that you don't create ruthless children. It's good to give them a sense of stability, and not a sense, but a feeling of stability.

0:34:56 - Cecilie Conrad
And that's not about the places.

0:34:58 - Jesper Conrad
in my opinion, Okay, there's a table football and that's the vacation house. That's the reason I love table football.

0:35:04 - Cecilie Conrad
It's the table football and the proximity to the ocean.

0:35:07 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah. Yes, that's it, but here this time we should get enough. Yeah, but here to find something that is big enough that we can invite friends we've invited some friends will come tomorrow. We have a friend in Catalonia. We have said to him if you want to come, come.

0:35:24 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, we're extremely social.

0:35:26 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, and one of the things we're traveling is. It's nice from time to time to rent a place where you can invite people, for example our daughter. One easy way to see our grown up daughter is also if we say hey, daughter, here's plane tickets to you and your boyfriend. Do you want to join us in Istanbul or in Gran Canalia?

0:35:45 - Pedro Bonatto
And then if you have a place that's big enough, then it's wonderful, yeah, so that's what I think we should mention this, because it's so, let's say, for most people would be unusual. I've heard about the idea of on schooling and how you guys. You guys talked a little bit about this, but I think it's so interesting to, especially now with the pandemic, they think people are more aware at least of homeschooling or those home pods, when you have like a bunch of each day of the week, one of the parents each. But there is also this one could say, more radical or more natural way that is like that you don't have the same of standing in front of one teacher with all this like like machine style, like actually from those times of life.

0:36:29 - Cecilie Conrad
So there's actually in some way.

0:36:31 - Jesper Conrad
The pandemic is a has been a good it's been a gift, I hope, for people about homeschooling but in another way it hasn't, because the pandemic, homeschooling was a lot of suffering for a lot of people and the kids basically had to still obey the school teacher and the curriculum.

0:36:52 - Cecilie Conrad
The parents didn't have the responsibility for the education. The responsibility was still on the hands of the school and the parents most of them had to work from home, so they didn't have any extra time resources to take care of their kids or to have conversations or to understand what the kids had to do. It was just more work on the side of the parents.

So I think a lot of parents got a very negative idea about homeschooling because, they were under such pressure and basically we were all under a lot of pressure during the pandemic. I loved it in some ways and I hated it. I was in Spain.

0:37:34 - Jesper Conrad
That was lockdown, yeah.

0:37:37 - Cecilie Conrad
But of course it was Europe, so no one beat us up, but I think, if you. But our style yeah.

0:37:45 - Jesper Conrad
I would take the other one first to finish it. If you take children out of there we don't know how long time the lockdowns were Then you I would have just said it relaxed, but they have a schedule. They need to have a schedule, as they are teaching 28 students at the same time. I wish they could do it differently, but if you're teaching 28 people at the same time, that might be the best system. It's not a system for us.

0:38:13 - Cecilie Conrad
But the pandemic. It was crazy that they were. Why not just leave the?

0:38:17 - Jesper Conrad
kids, yeah, and have time to talk about the free and anxiety.

0:38:21 - Cecilie Conrad
Just leave them be, but they didn't. So in that respect, I think a lot of people think they know what it is.

0:38:28 - Pedro Bonatto
But actually.

0:38:30 - Iana Komarnytska,
It wasn't people's choice or even like they still had to do the work and it was a lot of stress. And it happened all of a sudden. So but at least hopefully this time people can look back and maybe see like, oh, maybe that experience could have been better.

0:38:48 - Pedro Bonatto
You need to be called to adventure to some people.

0:38:50 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, I think the more people got inspired to start to homeschool, and what we do is we just live our life.

0:39:00 - Cecilie Conrad
We don't do school.

0:39:02 - Jesper Conrad
We don't school. We love to learn all of us, I think. On some ways I my own life was I went to the public school and then I went to high school and then I had fun for a lot of years and then at some point I decided to.

0:39:22 - Cecilie Conrad
Have another kind of fun and a family.

0:39:26 - Jesper Conrad
But I was just hanging out Having fun making projects and then at one point I got my foot into the media industry and I just worked out there for 20 years and still doing it.

0:39:37 - Cecilie Conrad
So your point is that you didn't need an education.

0:39:40 - Jesper Conrad
I didn't need an education to end up in a really well-paid career. I've had. And there are so many of the things people work with today that it's not something they were told at the university. There are areas where I prefer that people have practiced if I need to go to a doctor, of course, but there are so many things. I'm sorry.

0:40:05 - Cecilie Conrad
I think you're mixing things up, because there's the question of the higher education or the education as a base for your career. That's one thing. That's usually what people learn after the age of 18, 19, 20 years old, after high school kind of, and you choose your career and you become a doctor or a scientist or whatever.

So what I'm interested in and what we're doing is the childhood.

It's about the basic education from age, whatever you think.

Maybe in my country it's six years and you have to start school and then you go to school, for it's mandatory to have an education for 10 years in my country, and then most people do it in other three years of high school, kind of something equivalent to that and what we believe in is that this compulsory schooling of all of the children is stealing most of their time and telling them what to do and what not to do, and what is good to do, and did they do it well or not.

This is toxic. We believe that children are very capable of educating themselves and if we leave them with their time, which is their time on this planet, we respect their personal integrity and their ability to find their own trajectory and we leave them to grow up in an environment of unconditional love. They will be loved, whether they are good at things or not, and they are free to explore whatever they find interesting. In this way, they will have a basic education which is different from a curriculum based one, which means it's also different from a homeschool education, because we don't homeschool, we don't sit around a table with a little bell and a list of what people have to do.

We don't do it. We did it in the beginning, as I told you, but we don't do it anymore. We believe, basically, they have the right to have this personal freedom. We are both freedom fighters ourselves. No one can tell us what to do. You try and you will have problems. And of course it makes no sense that we should tell our children what to do. Of course we respect their personal freedom. So that's how we do it. We don't.

0:42:39 - Pedro Bonatto
We just live it. Yeah, that's the two things, because to me that sounds like fascinating, because I remember, like in at least my case, like for school, I remember at some point I loved going to school until the fifth, sixth grade and then it became. I remember, oh, now I'm going to learn science, and then I had a teacher say this is a vector, is that physics? That's what this is. So it's sort of like it beats out of you the curiosity and the interest and all those things. And I always saw that and I always remembered going to university, going to study under like in advertising, like communications and things like that. And I remember one of the guys that I most admired in the advertising industry in Brazil and he said if you're a painter, if you're a writer, if you're a photographer, if you're a sculptor, we'll try to hire you. If you are in advertising school, I have no use for you.

And then I'm like it was the first time, and then I started learning about this, other options, and like why can't you let the child follow their curiosity and their interest, so that I totally get the one. The two things that I start as we're thinking eventually, to like to have kids and even this oh, should we settle down and put kids in school, and all those things. The two things that I don't know how you guys deal with is the like having friends that are the same age.

So that would be interesting to know how to deal with that.

0:44:04 - Cecilie Conrad
I love it.

0:44:07 - Pedro Bonatto
I remember not wanting to be any. I love my parents. We would talk in the evenings about like where. I stand discussing sartre or whatever, but I like my friends my age to have the stupid problems that a 10 year old have. So how do you guys deal with that? Let's say what's the word for it.

0:44:22 - Jesper Conrad
Social argument yes, okay, let's take that one. That's one of the. The fun thing is there are two questions I'm not answering.

0:44:29 - Cecilie Conrad
I'm just saying there are two questions we always get how do you afford it? And what about social life? So, this is like the star.

0:44:38 - Jesper Conrad
But the really fun thing is being raised like you have been and we have been. It's very difficult to understand the forced reality we have been in. We have been in a reality where I can talk for myself. I dislike people who was a year younger. Because they were a year younger, you didn't talk with them, maybe you bullied them. And the people who were one year older, they were dangerous. So you only like people your same age because that was the square you were forced into living in. Then, when you went into sports, it was only people on the same age again. It's a really, really weird world if you think about it. I don't know how old are you, peter. I'm 42.

0:45:26 - Cecilie Conrad
And we shouldn't talk then how can we talk?

0:45:28 - Jesper Conrad
How can we talk? I'm 46 and we shouldn't be talking. And that is one of the fun things about believing that kids need to be around people on the same age it is. If you look at history, it's such a short period where we have had the experiment of school. It's only like 200 years or something I can't remember the correct link, but it's a very short period. And if you take the kindergarten and the nursery places, that's even shorter. I hope and believe that people will wake up and say, oh, that was a crazy experiment with it. Then let's do something better, because it's not natural. There's nothing normal about forcing 28 people of the same age into the same room and ask any children or yourself hey, petrol, would you like to go out and find 27 other people who are all 42 right now and spend eight hours together with them?

0:46:26 - Pedro Bonatto
Every day.

0:46:27 - Jesper Conrad
Every day Five days a week. Just ask yourself that question Is that something?

you wake up in the morning and think that could be cool and it's like no, I would hate it. I would hate not to be in a world where I can ask the elder to you young man over there, I can, I can lose my wisdom. Or when I meet with tomorrow my other friend, chris comes and he's 67 or something and there I can be the pupil and I love that. I love to be able to be in a mix of life. So our kids have friends who are like one of their best friends is 25.

Right, and they hang out and play board games at Mon La Basin and they have so much fun. And so the eighth thing is really it's called. If you look into it, it's called ageism also. It's a crazy world to believe.

0:47:21 - Cecilie Conrad
So there is the forced reality that most kids grow up in, where they they spend most of their waking hours in a group of people who have more or less the same age, and we all grew up in that reality. So we believe it's reality and we believe it's good for you and that's what you need, because when you're forced into this reality and most of it is no fun and you have the curriculum and you have the bells and you have the things you have to do and you have to read this page, not that page of the book and the whole structure of things no freedom, no real motivation, and the good thing is the friends you have.

0:47:59 - Cecilie Conrad
Right.

0:48:00 - Cecilie Conrad
You're in a bad box and the good thing you find is your friend over there. Of course, the forced reality of the box of the school that we all remember, which makes us think kids need kids of their own age, is because we were in a box where the only good thing was the other kids.

0:48:20 - Jesper Conrad
That's brilliant. They didn't mention Cecilia's, a trained psychologist, so it's not for fun.

0:48:27 - Cecilie Conrad
I didn't read it in a book.

I discussed it with a friend Anyway. So that's why we believe so. Another thing is that, of course, we have friends. In the schooled reality. You spend, as my husband said, you spend eight hours every day surrounded by 25 other kids. Let's say they're all your friends, you like them. Good social life. I have friends, I have a lot of friends. I have more than 25 friends. But let's say I picked 25 of my friends. Would I want to spend every day, from eight in the morning to four in the afternoon, with 25 of my friends? No, thank you.

I'm a very very hyper social person. I actually got tested several times and I'm like in the 99th percentile. I'm extremely social. Still I would not want to spend that many hours with that many of my friends. So this constructed reality is not real and I believe it's not good for kids.

0:49:29 - Pedro Bonatto
That's fascinating.

0:49:30 - Cecilie Conrad
That's so now we said all that. How do we have a social life? Because it's still a question. Of course we need a social life and some of us are hyper social and we really like people and we like to be around people and we have the five of us, we have each other, but it's not enough, obviously. Of course it's not enough. We like friends. The thing is, we're out of the idea that friends need to have the same age. Of course children enjoy being around other children. They are not always around other adults, because the funny thing is that other adults, they, also have children. So there are still some children in this world. Most of them are in school, so they're not very available because they are in the school all the time. You walk the streets, you don't see children, at least not before five o'clock, but some of the kids are not in school, some of the kids are travelers, and so we go to great lengths to find those kids.

0:50:32 - Pedro Bonatto
So, just as with all parents, you just so when I'm here in Istanbul.

0:50:36 - Cecilie Conrad
I say on social media in the traveling communities that we are here and we are with kids of this age, because of course, we like kids. There are a lot of people traveling with very small kids and then when the kids become older, the problem of education and social life becomes more confronting. It's actually not a problem. The problem is the critique of other people. So when your mother-in-law not my mother-in-law, but oh, she's cool.

But it's very often the mother-in-law or the father-in-law or some auntie or some best friend who keeps criticizing your child's needs. And if the kids are not perfectly balanced and happy, then it's because they're not in school and they don't have a home.

0:51:24 - Cecilie Conrad
And it's not, of course, of course our kids.

0:51:26 - Cecilie Conrad
Sometimes they are Out of balance. They hate it and they're out of balance and they freak out and they feel like shit. You know it happens to everyone sometimes and of course it happens to people who travel as well. But if you are not very strong in your choice of the unschooling and the traveling life, then it can be very hard to continue as the kids grow up. Right, and then you think the solution is a little house with two cars and the kids in school, and maybe it is.

0:51:58 - Jesper Conrad
Maybe for some people it is I could never go back. No, we're not going back, but we are, for example, here in Istanbul because we Actually, we're here for social reasons. We are for social reasons. Some friends needed to go to Istanbul for two weeks and we visit them a week or two every year and they said, oh, we are going to Istanbul, do we want to join us? And we were in Spain and it's not like it's a quick trip.

0:52:22 - Cecilie Conrad
So we Next up is Copenhagen. It's not like. It's on the way. No, no, no.

0:52:28 - Jesper Conrad
So we were like are you in Istanbul? Yeah, we'll come, guys. And then they were like do you mean it? Yeah, of course.

0:52:33 - Cecilie Conrad
And actually now we came before them.

0:52:35 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, we have board games and we can play board games together with them and it will be awesome. We will have a lot of fun. They come tomorrow.

0:52:41 - Cecilie Conrad
We very often travel for people and we very often say the adventure is for people.

0:52:45 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah, it's not the destination.

0:52:47 - Cecilie Conrad
It's the people you meet, and sometimes it's people we already know and they are somewhere, or it's people we don't know, but they're unschooling and they live in a van and they are in XYZ place and we're like, okay, let's go there see if they're fun.

0:52:59 - Iana Komarnytska,
And if they're not?

0:53:00 - Cecilie Conrad
fun. You know what we can just leave so and it's not like we dislike people when we leave, but sometimes the energy is not perfect. And sometimes we have only two or three days and we meet someone. And it's just amazing and we're like, oh, I want to stay for a month, but we have something we have to do.

0:53:18 - Pedro Bonatto
And then we come back yeah that's so fascinating that this was the only end. To me it's more like mind blowing Like of course, and also about the social aspects. It's like I remember, even when I was a kid, sometimes the most interesting people had nothing to do with age right, it's just like the narrow range of non-mean kids, especially because I lived. I was in one city, then I went to another. They had a different accent. As soon as I spoke I went into a fight because they started laughing at my.

it was my first fight like that kind of stuff, so like yeah of course, and then you find those three, four friends that will be like for life. But that has nothing to do with the environment of the school, and that's fascinating those friends.

0:53:58 - Cecilie Conrad
they are down there in the street as well. Exactly Of course we find friends and we find lifetime friends and also we have friends that we don't have to be with them all the time. We have some friends. We see them maybe a week or two every year, but they're really close friends.

0:54:14 - Jesper Conrad
One of my best friends. We just need to talk in the phone every second year, then all is sorted. That's like it's cool, we know we're there. We are what we call life witnesses, because he has been in my life so long, I've been in his life so long, so we need to check up from time to time, but we live separate lives. He's a school teacher. I mean. We live very differently, but we need to connect from time to time and be there, but you can just say what you want to say.

0:54:40 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, I can not hear you, don't go get it.

0:54:42 - Iana Komarnytska,
What's that? What but?

0:54:44 - Cecilie Conrad
you can just Four kids. You just needed the charger for the computer. Grab it, of course you can take it.

0:54:52 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah, so cute, yeah. So I know you guys have more interviews coming soon. Other people are here, so first of all, thank you for being with us. It was like if people want to take a look at your work, because I know you guys have a website that people should go to.

0:55:06 - Cecilie Conrad
Well, schoolingnomasscom.

0:55:08 - Pedro Bonatto
Mm-hmm.

0:55:09 - Iana Komarnytska,
You'll make sure to add also links. Yeah, so we'll add links and everything.

0:55:12 - Jesper Conrad
Yeah, and we will send you a picture of the past you can give in the video. Yes, please do.

0:55:16 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah, you have any, you just will interlate, like put it somewhere in the footage Any last thoughts, comments, anything?

0:55:22 - Iana Komarnytska,
Well, very interesting. I think it would be very different perspectives for many people because we receive a lot of questions to look oh, how you travel so much, but we don't travel that much compared to your story.

0:55:35 - Cecilie Conrad
We just started, we just started.

0:55:37 - Iana Komarnytska,
So very interesting. Just I even liked it kind of goes very nicely with our previous episode, because we talked about different paths that you take in a new country or in a new city, which you can also do in your own city, which leads to different things. And that's how, basically, we met with you, because we were dropping by just for a cup of tea and coffee to meet with our common friend, and then she invited oh I'm doing this meeting, do you want to stay?

0:56:06 - Pedro Bonatto
So we stayed and that's when you were right there. Yeah, and that's actually a very good point, because we were actually going to oh, let's go to this shopping area, because she wanted to go do some shopping specifically for some photo shoots and some videos. And then I said Rocky is on display, so it looks so interesting, let's just drop by and have a coffee, Right? That's how I convinced her. I said just for coffee.

0:56:26 - Jesper Conrad
It's okay. It's about the saying yes and being open. I mean, it has changed our life so much. From time to time we have said yes. People have said to us why don't you come and live with us for a month and we'll lie. Okay, let's try that. It's a new experience.

0:56:43 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah, it's a strategy we've done a few times. It's actually really crazy. We just moved in with strangers yeah, someone we didn't even meet. Never met before or maybe we did meet them real life just once or twice and they were like come live with us. And we were like, yeah, so now we're totally used to just moving into people's place.

0:57:02 - Cecilie Conrad
And it's a lot of people, most people have a lot of space.

0:57:05 - Jesper Conrad
We live in a bus, it's 22 square meters, and we find people. I mean this room is people that are not.

0:57:09 - Cecilie Conrad
This room is enough, of course, living accommodation for a family of five, and people have a lot of chairs and they have a kitchen, and what happens when you move in with people, instead of visiting or being neighbors, is, within 24 hours, you know, you've seen each other brush teeth and you've been really tired in the morning and you just become friends.

0:57:32 - Cecilie Conrad
You've dropped it for self.

0:57:33 - Cecilie Conrad
Everything falls down to like a very, very peaceful way of being together and you get to know each other like really in the heart. You have really good conversations in between things not over dinner but all the little situations and we've had amazing experiences.

0:57:53 - Jesper Conrad
It's fantastic way to live together and people who invited us. I prefer to live together with people instead of visiting them, because waking up and hanging out in the morning and it's like, yeah, yeah, come on. I've seen you being angry at your kids, you've seen me being angry at our kids. We're both human.

0:58:08 - Cecilie Conrad
We've been happy together and you've seen me being really tired. We know that's life yeah.

0:58:14 - Jesper Conrad
I mean, and just being honest being there, and you get so great friends from this.

0:58:19 - Cecilie Conrad
It's wonderful.

0:58:20 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah, we almost had one. That in the end I'm glad we actually didn't go in this little adventure Because a friend I just messaged someone saying, oh, I'm here to talk to his musicians and this projects, and then she said, oh, why don't you come today, the next day, with us to this mountain with like Dervishes and stuff? And then we just could not arrange to be able to say okay for next time. And then she said, oh, it's for the better, and I'm like, no, it is. We met you guys, we did a lot of cool things, so it's like yeah, it's a.

0:58:47 - Cecilie Conrad
It's always for the better, that's the well. That's another episode.

0:58:51 - Pedro Bonatto
Yes, I guess yeah, so it's for something better, yeah.

0:58:55 - Cecilie Conrad
So it's also a question of perspective. If you choose it, it's for the better. Right, yeah, you can always look at the little thing that's not working, If you want to or you can look at the great perspective of what's actually going on.

0:59:08 - Pedro Bonatto
Right.

0:59:09 - Cecilie Conrad
It's mindset period, yeah.

0:59:11 - Pedro Bonatto
Well, that's on that note. We should do your stuff. Thank you again. And thank you for being our first double date.

0:59:19 - Cecilie Conrad
Yeah.

0:59:20 - Pedro Bonatto
That is really cool. So this has been. You want to close this off?

0:59:24 - Iana Komarnytska,
I think that was very excited and interesting conversation and I think we will receive a lot of questions. So we'll see yes, we'll ask you and see how to address them in the next episode. So people have their requests, because I know now is a lot of exciting things but a lot of questions still too.

0:59:43 - Pedro Bonatto
Yeah and yeah, and number two coming soon, because there's a lot more to it.

0:59:50 - Iana Komarnytska,
We just started scratching. Well, we'll see, we'll see, we'll go now.

0:59:55 - Pedro Bonatto
We're supposed to be out of here. A while back we were now literally like yes, are we going to like a backlit, tap it to the Kavadocia or sticking around in Istanbul? We don't.

1:00:07 - Cecilie Conrad
So we'll see you around.

1:00:08 - Iana Komarnytska,
But at least no. Thank you once again, guys, and I'm pretty sure we'll see you soon.

1:00:13 - Jesper Conrad
Yes, it was a pleasure. Cool Bye, ciao. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed today's episode and if you liked them, then please share it with all your friends and family. We would also love it if you gave our podcast a review. Thanks, and if you want to support our podcast and work, then you can find us on patreoncom slash. The Conrad family. We will continue to travel full time and if you want to tag along, then please follow us on Facebook and Instagram at the Conrad family, and you can also read more than 100 blog posts on our website, the Conrad family. Until next time, make a wonderful day, thank you.