#22 - Chris Attwood | The Passion Test & The Power of Rituals in Parenting

Jesper Conrad: 0:10

So today we have the honor of being together with our good friend, Chris Attwood, whom one day stood in our garden or living room. I can't remember what came first, because they had moved to Denmark and wanted to know more about home schooling and on schooling, And we knew a lot about that. But the amount of knowledge I've had the pleasure of getting from knowing you, Chris, is very valuable. And if it weren't for you and that your family decided to be in Denmark for some time, I can't be in doubt if we would be here where we are currently on a castle in France. It sounds very fancy. It's a world school pop-up, but you wanted a change in your life and we ended up standing talking, as dads normally do when they don't know what to do. They're like so what are you doing for a work? And you told me, and I well, after the day went past, i was like I would love to talk more to this guy. Maybe that can be the ticket to the dream I had.

Chris Attwood: 1:17

And thanks a lot for the support and help, chris, first of all, yeah, So now you guys seem to be really living your passions, as far as I can tell.

Jesper Conrad: 1:26

Absolutely.

Chris Attwood: 1:28

Yes, we're all in favor of passion. I think it's something we didn't before, but the passion of being local and local independent, that one we didn't really nail down before we had the chance to meet you and get into all that life, so that was one of the most It's been great to see how you guys have opened up and organized your life to be able to live freely and to travel and to allow your kids to experience so many different cultures and languages and places and opportunities that most kids never get a chance to.

Cecilie Conrad: 2:09

And.

Chris Attwood: 2:09

I think that's one of the things we shared right, because, as you know, we've traveled all over the world with our kids And part of the thing we wanted was that they would grow up as global citizens, not as citizens of this country or that country. You know, fortunately, they speak just like your kids. They speak several languages and they're learning more as we speak. But even without that, the fact that they had the opportunity to interact with kids of all ages, all cultures, all religions, all colors, you know, all of these things to me is one of the most valuable things for kids in their education. So grateful we've both had that opportunity.

Jesper Conrad: 2:55

It is wonderful I walking over here to do the podcast. I was thinking about some of the first things I think I learned from you and which inspired me. One was back when we met. Our kids had highly big iPad use And I remember sitting in your living room later on when we got to know each other and saw how your kids wanted to play and interact And our kids retracted a little into the iPads And that has helped inspire us to help our kids to find a better level of how much digital is allowed to be in their life. But I also remember your kids took a walk where it was just silent And I was like what is happening here? Strange family, this strange family. So can you mention a couple of words about the idea of this silent walk and being inside yourself, even as a child?

Chris Attwood: 4:13

Well, to be honest with you, Jesper, I don't exactly remember that walk.

Cecilie Conrad: 4:18

It was those things They walked in the morning and that's the kind of meditation just walk without walking.

Chris Attwood: 4:25

Oh, i remember you're talking about the walking mantras. So, yeah, now I remember. Our kids are older now, except for Cheitan. Cheitan still does his walking mantras. So our kids. As you both know, transital meditation has been a big part of both my and my wife's life for most of our lives, and so when children are four years old, they have the opportunity to learn a what's called a word of wisdom. It's a mantra, essentially it's a sound, doesn't have any meaning, but it allows the mind to stay active, but undirected. So the mind isn't focused here, there, there, there, but it also is not just going to sleep or anything. It's still awake, it's still alert, and, and so when each of our kids turned four years old, they were instructed and learned a word of wisdom which they then could use with their eyes open, walking or even playing, doing things that didn't require a lot of thinking, but if they wanted to, you know, to play, or if they wanted to walk. So you, i think you may remember me or Do, taking our kids for this silent walk. While it was, they went for five minutes in the morning, or and in the afternoon then they would repeat their word of wisdom to themselves, and and for me, i have to say that it was a wonderful time just to be with my children, without trying to do something, you know, i mean, the only thing we were doing was walking, but it was such a pleasant thing just to be in their presence. And, as I'm sure you experience with your kids as well, there's, especially when they're young there's such an innocence and a sweetness, and so being able to be in that presence and to be reminded of that innocent, childlike approach and, you know, relationship to life, was really, really wonderful. So that was our silent walks. Now I remember the silent walks. So this is, this is our word of wisdom for the kids When they turn 10 years old. Then our two daughters have learned a sitting technique, so they're sitting meditation, and so now we meditate together as a family. We don't go for walks so much. We do go for walks, but not not to meditate, but we do sit together and meditate together. I in the car while I'm taking the kid, because our girls are now. They made the decision themselves. They went to go to school, as you know, after being home schooled for many, many years, and but we have an hour drive to so they could go to a Waldorf school and they meditate on the way, and then we also do. We also do our morning. What is it called morning circle? So we, we could you know, i think you both know that I wrote a book on rituals, you know your hidden riches, unleashing the power ritual to create a life of meaning and purpose. And so we've seen the value of rituals in our lives, and particularly for kids, in my experience, that when kids love routines, they love dependability, they love the safety of things that are repeated, and, and so we've thought about how could we structure routines or rituals into our life in a way that would add richness, not not in a way that was just, you know, we do it because we have to do it sort of ritual, but rather like, like you guys have experienced, you know that- we just yeah, when we, when we have meals, you know, we had the idea. You know, everybody comes from some different place when they come together for the meal, right? And so we thought, well, what can we do to create happiness or joy at the beginning of our meals? So, as you know, we sing this, this Johnny Appleseed song, right at the beginning of our meals And and it always, it always makes me smile. At the end, you know, it's just like yay, right, and then our morning circle is I, as you both know, i've spent a fair amount of time in my life studying the Vedic tradition of India And I've recognized the value of Sanskrit and the sounds that the Sanskrit sounds actually create changes in the brain activity of those who are listening or singing them. So we will sing Gayatri mantra together. We'll sing this, this phrase from the Upanishads called Sahana Vavatu, the, the, we. We also have a couple of phrases that we put in a middle. Put in a middle. This is full, that is full. All this is nothing but what taking fullness from fullness, what remains as fullness is recognizing that the inner life, absolute, unchanging value of life, is full. The outer, relative, ever changing life is full. This outer changing life comes out of that never changing aspect of life, and yet nothing has been taken away from it. You know that the fullness remains. So there are things like this that we wanted to do to remind our kids of what we've experienced as being true about life. Another one is what that means is, whether pure or impure, whether all things are permeated by purity or impurity, whoever opens himself to the expanded vision of unbounded awareness gains inner and outer purity. And I have to say this is a kind of opening to the traditional puja, the ceremony of gratitude in the in the Vedic tradition. But I've always loved it because it reminded me is, no matter how messed up I might feel, or no matter how messed up I might feel my life is or where I made mistakes or I screwed this up or I screwed that up, no matter how impure I may feel that I was or have been or have become, there's always hope. The purification of the impure is always available And so that there's always the opportunity to come back to that place of purity inside. So we, so we do the morning circle And then, after we do these recitations, then we will do what's up with you. This is something we I learned professionally and we do it with the kids is just like two minutes or one minute on. You know what's going on. I'm sleepy, my head hurts or I banged underneath this morning she banged her head feels funny right here because I banged my. It doesn't hurt but it feels funny. They maybe sometimes they're excited or whatever. You know whatever's going on. Just kind of a check in on what's going on. And then we do after that, we each set three intentions what are your intentions for the day? Because we believe, as I know that you both do, is we create our own life right, and we created from our thoughts, our beliefs, the concepts we hold about ourselves, about the people around us, about the world. And so we just say what kind of life do I want to create today? You know that's the intention setting. And then, and then we, then we take a moment, just because I know this isn't true in your family, but I know in many families many kids have grown up not being told so much how much they're loved or appreciated, or even if, even if the parents say I love you, they don't really say why I love you, you know. And so one of the things that we do to end our morning circle, or toward the end of our morning circle, is. Each person chooses one other. And then they say what I love and appreciate about you is. And then they say what I love and appreciate just a couple, you know, doesn't have to be a big long thing, but just one thing I love and appreciate about you, and and it's, it's a really sweet thing. And whether that's the reason for it or not, i can tell you that our kids are so tight, you know. I mean they, they love each other, they love hanging out together.

Cecilie Conrad: 13:09

It's very rare that they have so much love in your family. You like walk into the house and it's overwhelming. I really love to do that. It's wonderful.

Chris Attwood: 13:21

Well, and that's why we love being with you guys, because I also feel that in your family. No, it's just like this parallel thing going, yeah, exactly. And then I just want to close the morning circle. The final piece for us of the morning circle is we just say a prayer. You know, we just recognize that unbounded, infinite intelligence which is guiding and directing our life, and and acknowledging that, no matter how much I may think that I'm in control of my life, i recognize ultimately I'm not that there's so many things I have no control over, so many things that that happen and and so many blessings that come to us that hard to say oh yeah, i deserve that. You know, this did I really deserve that? God only knows. But so we just express gratitude at the end of the circle, and it's a sweet thing. It takes maybe 10 or 15 minutes, but it's really a great way to do it. So my girls and I do that every morning. Chocho only gets a cheetan. Our young, our nine year old son, only gets it on the weekend, unfortunately, because because you do it in the car while driving to the world. Yeah, we do, and that's right. Exactly, that's the, that's the advantage of having an hour long drive, you see.

Jesper Conrad: 14:40

I'm impressed.

Cecilie Conrad: 14:44

I think it's very interesting. Now this podcast is called Self-Directed and we talk to a lot of people who are all about children's personal freedom and adults' personal freedom and how to untie ourselves from cultural layers, personal things that happened and how can we live a truly free life. And when you share how you structure your life. it seems very structured compared to some of the radical unschoolers, Yet we've spent a lot of time together and I know it's not discipline.

Chris Attwood: 15:22

It's not top down.

Cecilie Conrad: 15:25

It's all voluntary, and I would just love for you to say something about how, because I find it beautiful how what you do, the things you organize, and it is top down kind of It comes from the parents. they have this idea. this is a good thing to do, let's go do this, and you just invite with love There's no pushing or pushing.

Chris Attwood: 15:46

But if they don't want to come, if they don't want to come, they don't have to come. They don't want to participate, they don't have to participate.

Cecilie Conrad: 15:53

But the relation between the rituals you make and the personal freedom of your children, the relation between being disciplined in sitting down and do the meditations twice a day and having your personal freedom Did you talk about that for a while?

Chris Attwood: 16:09

I mean I think, from my perspective, it's our meditations that give us the personal freedom, because what happens in meditation is the mind expands, the mind opens up. One way of talking about it is that we each have a brain, we have a container of knowledge And that container, no matter how much we may believe in freedom and self-direction and all of that, it's still bound by the concepts and beliefs that we hold to be true. And so, for me, what meditation does is it allows the container to open up. And, as you both know, the other thing that's really powerful and been very important in our lives is the work of Byron Cating. And I just got back in March, i took our two daughters, our 15-year-old and our 12-year-old, to the school for the work of Byron Cating, where they got to sit with Byron Cating and do the work and all that. And the reason that I mentioned, and the reason why I think it's so important, is because it's perhaps the most powerful tool that we found for undoing or unraveling limiting beliefs, and that's what holds our container, that's what keeps us from being truly self-directed. You can talk about self-direction, but there's nobody who's grown up without the influence of our culture, of their parents, of their friends and everybody. You can't live in a human body without beliefs and concepts And the question is, do those concepts limit you or do they free you? And I think the example you gave of our rituals on one hand, our rituals seem to be very disciplined and you could even say they're very structured, but, as I think you've experienced in our lives, our lives are very free. They're very open. Our kids we didn't decide our kids to go to school. They decided they wanted to go to school. To me, that's self-direction. We let them And what we as parents have seen. Our job is to create a safe space for them, a safe space where they can rest in the comfort of knowing that they're loved, knowing that there is ultimately an intelligence in the universe that they can trust, that things aren't random, but that they can relax. They don't have to feel that their life is all up to them. Like I shared with you, if they make mistakes it's okay. Mistakes are great. Mistakes is how we learn. Mistakes are fine And mistakes are yeah. As you may remember from our book, we talk about mistakes. Mistake Like take one, take two, take three in a movie right, you just take it again. You take it again until it comes out the way you want it to come out. So for us, meditation and the other rituals that we do, they provide that kind of container within which our children can find themselves, discover themselves, whatever that looks like a means for them. And what I was saying about meditation expanding the container is that by allowing the mind to go inward instead, you know, when we're eyes open, our senses are, we're involved in all the sensory experience. By closing the eyes and using a meaningless sound to allow the mind to go inward, what we discover is that there is a deep peace inside of all of us, and when our children have the opportunity to connect with that and then simultaneously there's a process of purification of the body that takes place, then that container gets bigger. Their ability to perceive more, their ability to understand more, their ability to experience more grows and therefore their ability to be self-directed grows right, their ability to actually discover themselves and discover what life they want to live, and all of that. And I think you know people often comment about our kids and I think you can speak to it as well but that people say oh well, there was this woman at the school for the work. She said your kids are just the most amazing kids I've seen in my entire life. These were two daughters, you know. And why did she say that? Well, she said that because they had a self-confidence and sense of self that often isn't seen in kids that are that age, you know, and I don't think that's because of us as parents. I think that's because we've allowed them, we've given them the space and the tools to be able to have that confidence in themselves, to be able to know who they are at a deep level. I mean, they felt they're in this room. There was one other 16-year-old. The rest of the room is all adults, you know. And they were perfectly fine. They were comfortable laughing, they were interacting with the adults just the same as an adult, would you know. I mean, they didn't have a problem with it. If they felt if there was some talking going on or something and they were kind of getting a little bored or just weren't involved with it so much, well, what would they do? They pull out their paper and they start drawing and they make these beautiful drawings and gorgeous things and then they give them away to the people around them. You know, i mean it's interesting. The girls, at least, have really developed that. Chaitan, our boy, is a little different. You know, he gets bored. I had a big insight. I want to say one more thing about the work, and then I'd like to talk about Chaitan, if it's okay, because there's different boys and girls, you know. But the work of Byron Katie, as you guys know, is just four questions in the turnaround. It's a way of examining self-inquiry and looking at thoughts that cause suffering, beliefs or concepts that cause me to suffer, and so it's been a tool that we've shared with our children for a long time because, again, we want them to be unlimited, right, we want their awareness to be unbounded. Free To me, that's if you really want your children to be self-directed. If you want to live a self-directed life, then you need to get rid of the freaking boundaries that you may not even be aware of right You need to be. And how do I get rid of those? Well, the way I left. Byron Katie says I don't let go of my stressful thoughts. When I ask four questions, i turn it around. Those stressful thoughts let go of me. And I love that you know. Because, it's so effortless, you know, i don't have to try to change my thinking. All I have to do is question my thoughts and then the thoughts that aren't useful begin to disappear. So just about Cheyton, and I'd love to hear a little bit from you guys about it, because you all, you have a girl and two boys.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:22

we have two girls and a boy right.

Jesper Conrad: 23:24

And one adult To be accurate.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:26

Well, she was a father some point.

Chris Attwood: 23:27

Oh yeah, that's right. I'm sorry, You're absolutely right.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:30

I have experience of two daughters.

Chris Attwood: 23:31

I would say We haven't spent much time with your oldest girls, so I keep forgetting that you have one. Forget that for that.

Cecilie Conrad: 23:38

I just think it's not fair to say I have only one daughter. I think she would be hurt Yeah.

Chris Attwood: 23:44

So you have two girls and two boys, and we have two girls and one boy, and our boy is the youngest, he's nine, and it's been an interesting thing because the girls I don't remember the girls ever while they were growing up saying, oh I'm so bored, you know, and yet he does all the time. This is like a nonstop thing, and I had a big insight this, actually last weekend, about this because it had bothered me, and so I did the work on it. I did ask the four questioners and turned it around, see what was going on in me, and what I realized is that One aspect it's not the whole story, but one aspect of what our son is saying. When he says I'm bored, is he saying I don't feel loved and I don't feel like I'm involved in whatever is going on right now. Right, I don't feel like I'm getting. It's not just about getting attention, but I don't feel a part of the experience of the family at this moment And and I hate to say it, but I noticed that I had gotten so tired of him being bored. I don't know if you remember, but when we were all in Istanbul together, we made this trip up to this beach town which I don't remember the name of the boat was about an hour drive right And what was it was called.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:13

It was called Sheila.

Chris Attwood: 25:15

It was beautiful, it was wonderful.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:17

It was really fun.

Chris Attwood: 25:18

But in the van on the way up Chocho got bored, you know. I mean he said he was bored and not only was he bored but he got angry and he started hitting his sisters and hitting his mother and and I hate to say it but I got really pissed. I was this is not okay, All right. And so I grabbed him and I held him so he could hit anybody. I said you can't do this, you know, but this is not how I went.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:51

Oh, you had a driver.

Jesper Conrad: 25:54

It's a Tesla, drives it.

Chris Attwood: 25:57

The van was being driven.

Cecilie Conrad: 25:59

We had a driver.

Chris Attwood: 26:00

That's right And and so, but this is not how I choose to treat my children, but my son, you know, this is not how I want to be with him, no matter how he's acting. And this and last weekend we were on our way to an activity at the girl school and he got bored and and I got pissed again. So I did this, i did the work, i asked the four questions, turned it around, and what I realized is that in that moment, rather than getting bored, rather getting angry, what would be more appropriate for me is to give him love. You know what does that look like? give him, you know, it doesn't cost me anything while I'm driving, to give him some attention. And so he, our kids aren't there, they're no longer off iPads and and I as much as they were when we met you. They're not on the all the time, but, but she would be on it all the time if we gave him that freedom, you know. I mean he, he is like you know. You know you know, you know the story was nine when we met you, as I was Yeah, yeah, and Chaitan is nine now. And if we let him, he would be on the, on his iPad or his phone all the time not his, he doesn't have one, but on one of the ones that I had all the time. And so we figured out, we've looked at different ways of regulating and maybe you have some suggestions for us, because you've been through this. But you know we do things like he can work and earn watch time so he can. He can do things he can empty the dishwasher, he can help his mom clean, or he can help with his grandmother, his mom or whatever, and then he can earn watch time. That's one way we felt with it. But in the car that day, what I realized is that all I needed to do is ask him about something that he was interested in, and it was so sweet, i have to say, because I came the next day. I came into his room he wasn't feeling well and I sat down. I said I want to apologize to you Because I really am sorry that I got angry with you yesterday, and I've realized that when you tell me that you're bored, what you're really saying is I'm not feeling loved right now and I'm not feeling a part of whatever it is going on. And I'm sorry that I didn't recognize that before. And here's what I, here's my intention. And I said you know that I could just as well ask you about Minecraft and what you're doing, what you want to do, what your plans are. and you know, and and would that be interesting? and would you need to be on the iPad if we were talking about that? he said, no, that would be really fun. Can we talk about that? And right, and, and I said that the other thing I recognize is that you know I work a lot and and I want to make more. And I know that when you and I spend time together, we both have a blast. Isn't that true? and you just yeah, and I said I want to make it more of a priority to spend time with you. And and it was so sweet because without any I didn't he just reached up and gave me the biggest hug in the world and on my heart just went, oh, this is so sweet. So I hope and pray that I can follow through on this learning. But it was a great learning, a really good recognition, because I've talked to other parents and and we're not the only ones with nine year old boys or nine year old kids maybe, but nine year old boys who get bored, you know or eight or 10 or whatever age. So I really was happy to have that realization, i think the core of it is this being involved thing.

Cecilie Conrad: 29:48

Yeah, Jason probably basically feels loved all the time.

Chris Attwood: 29:53

Yeah, that's true.

Cecilie Conrad: 29:54

So I think the being involved thing is the core of it and I've discussed this electronic thing with hundreds of people because it's a worry for many parents and it was for us, and now I'm more chill. There is a great podcast by the BBC called Generation Gaming. It's really worth listening to, has a lot of effects and and it really was a game changer for me, so I would recommend that to everyone. But I think when they pick up the iPad or whatever and they watch something or they play their games, it must be because it's the most interesting option they can see.

Chris Attwood: 30:41

That's right.

Cecilie Conrad: 30:44

Maybe we should put them in an environment that is more interesting if we don't like the amount of electronic entertainment or it's not even entertainment. When I see what my children do with the iPad I'm like, okay, why am I judging this? they read Wikipedia pages. They learn languages. They come tell me about some weird machine that was invented in the 17th century and everybody forgot about it because they watched a YouTube video about it. They learned the history of the world. It's not always what we think it is. Yeah, with Minecraft they connect with people all over the world. They get to spend time with their friends. I'm sure Fjord would love to play Minecraft with Chayton online and they can have some that would be awesome when we're not in Germany with you guys. I think we also have to figure out what it is we are afraid of with these electronics and we have to make sure that there are other options available for them. Like, go for a walk with that or what, because when I ask them, yep, it's not what they want to do all the time, but sometimes they can.

Jesper Conrad: 31:52

I have a Okay, no, no, no, yeah, it's just something else. No, no, no, please, no, it's just. I was thinking that sometimes what I feel is the the guilt about it. I would prefer my kids were doing something else, but I'm not willing at that time to be involved with them because I want to do something else with your computer, with my computer. Yes, absolutely. So that's why I'm saying it right now is that I actually believe sometimes it's my own guilt of not wanting to be involved with my children that would. I would feel better if they were sitting and doing an art project or something. Then was like oh, it's because they are involved, but it's me not wanting to be involved and that that's terrible to accept about yourself sometime. It's a learning journey.

Chris Attwood: 32:46

I mean. In all fairness, i would say that my wife has more of an issue about electronics than I do. I've always loved electronics, since computers, since personal computers were. So I'm old enough that since personal computers was were first embedded and I could get one, i've had one. You know, I have a picture of me with a gavel in computer, which probably nobody remembers what a gavel and computer was, but it was a box about this thick and like this and you could lift up the lid and it had a keyboard and you could you could type on it. I had, you know, the first Mac in this box. You know the. Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 33:25

I know that.

Chris Attwood: 33:26

All of those things I've loved computers, i love technology, i love video games actually as well. So it's been hard for me to say, oh, you know He shouldn't do this or that. But I also recognize that there's some value, at least in my opinion. There's some value to balance and I think what you said, cecilia, is exactly right, is that when, when he, when my child wants to watch, it's because there's nothing else that seems as charming to him in that moment as that, you know, and there are reasons for that. Like he won't even want to go for a walk or go for a bike ride. You know, offer those things, but because his body. Unfortunately we're still working on this, but his body is much not as strong as the other kids and so lots of times he doesn't feel that good or going. You know it's a strain to go for a bike ride or a walk, but when we sit will sit together and we'll play board games or stuff on the weekend. He loves that. You know this is awesome fun.

Cecilie Conrad: 34:32

I talk. So I don't believe in the restricting hours or earning screen time anymore. I use, but it never. I never found system that would actually work. It was just annoying whatever way we made it. But I do talk to my it's especially the boys. The girl is actually not a problem, but the boys, because the things they do with the computer is could unfold for hours and hours and hours. We have to talk about it And what I say to them is I don't feel comfortable. It might be because I'm from the age of the dinosaurs and I don't understand. But I'm your mother and I have to feel comfortable with what you're doing. So please teach me. Why does this make sense for six hours? And I try to sit down and look at the games. They make me nauseous sometimes so I can't. But then I make them explain why is this fun? and I really do understand that it's fun. And also I say to them that a computer game I get, that it's fun. I can play a few games. I know it's fun, but it is kind of I don't know. It's so stimulating that it can be hard to go for a walk in the forest afterwards and open your mind to how stimulating the forest is. So if they want to do it, they will have to counteract by doing the other things. It's not a rule I don't say to my children they have to counter, do things. I don't say if you played for two hours you have to go for a walk for two hours. I just say to them you have to put a motor on yourself and go, do the other things, because they will seem less appealing, because the screen is so appealing And that has I believe it has to do very much with the brain. So much of our brain works with visual input and the visual input is just too much for what our brain is developed for. So that's, i try to rather talk to them than make rules, and they I'll tell you why.

Chris Attwood: 36:49

For us in our family, with him in particular, this thing of earning watch time has worked quite well because before he used to resent doing stuff to help in the house, even for a while, I had things that, where all of them had things that they would contribute, we had agreements, actually written agreements, of what they, how they would contribute to the. Because, guess what, whether you want to or not, the house has to be maintained, the dishes have to be washed the clothes have to be folded.

Cecilie Conrad: 37:23

If the parents have to do all the work, where's the freedom? for me, It's totally. Oh no, no, I get it.

Chris Attwood: 37:30

And so we had. We would divide up with the things that needed to be done, and then I would pay them something for doing every week, for doing those things, not so much that they related to earning money, but I wanted to teach them how to handle money. And so they. They have a jar system. I don't know if you've ever been introduced to our jar system.

Jesper Conrad: 37:50

But they have a jar system.

Chris Attwood: 37:53

And so when they get money, they know that 50% goes into a jar called necessities, like clothing and food and things, although when they're this young, we let them use it for other, for, like, buying big things, like sometimes iPads or phones or whatever bicycles, stuff like that. But then there's six, there's five other jars, and those five jars are for education, for large purchases, for donations, for financial freedom, that's, for investing money to be able to live without having to work for in a job, and and then fun, just just money. And so the idea is what? what I wanted to train them in this idea is that there's a value to setting money aside for things that you may want in the future but but may require more than just what you have at the moment. And so they save, they save up the money. And now the girls Jojo still knew he's only been in it a couple of years doing this. He asked money and he spends it. But the girls, they pretty much have money for whatever they want. You know, nandini just went out and bought herself some running shoes and sandals, you know, because she needed them. They, they, if they want, she wanted to do this dance class, so she had the money she paid for the dance class from her education fund. You know, the and I think that's when it with our kids. I think that's one of the things that's given themselves confidence and allowed them to feel that they're in charge of their own life is because they don't have to ask mama and daddy for, for money. You know, if they want something, they are perfectly. It was really fun. You know, i took the girls to California for the school, for the work. We spent some time traveling around and we all talked about. We thought, well, maybe it would be fun to go to Universal Studios in LA because it's rides and cool stuff and things. And we talked about it and thought, what do we do? we want to do that or not? And to get passes so you didn't have to stand in lines was like $250. I mean, these tickets are not cheap. As I said, well, if you want to go, i'll take you, but you have to pay for your own tickets, you know. And so they made the decision They wanted to go and so they each paid $250 to so that and we had blast. It was awesome. The Harry anybody ever wants to go to Universal Studios? if you're into that sort of thing. The Harry Potter ride is the best, totally off the charts, wonderful, but. But that's one of the things I've been I've been really happy about is that they've earned money. But with Chocho the earning money thing never really sort of did it for him. I mean he's he likes to earn some money, but it's, it wasn't the same. The girls had a different response to it. But so I was coming back this thing of when he can earn watch time, then he actually is excited about helping. It's so interesting because his mental state changes dramatically and he said, oh, can I empty the dishwasher? I want to. I mean, this is the first time in our lives he's been asking if he can help, you know. So at least in our family that's worked well. You know that's been a good, a good way of addressing it.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:18

And this more or less the same dynamic as when I tell my boys if you want to play this much, you have to put your motor on doing the other things, because they are harder to get yourself to get the ball rolling. If you want to learn a musical instrument, it's not as appealing. The first beer takes forever before it's fun, so you have to work harder whereas you don't. If you don't play, it's just easier to do these things And it is. I think that makes sense for them And I don't have a problem with the amount of gaming and watching and whatever We talk about it a lot and I think, about the content, like what did you see, What did you play? But I have a thing. I have one point I want to say to you. That is, in our family it's two boys, So they do these things together, which changes the dynamic a lot. I understand as a parent, you see your child all alone with the computer for several hours and feels, whereas our boys they do things on their own with their phones and computers, but they spend the majority of time they spend with electronics. They do it together. Yeah, they're playing together, which is great They're playing together and it's like playing football just not football, but together and change the dynamic quite a lot. I would restrict or work harder to restrict if it was only one child, i would totally.

Jesper Conrad: 42:53

Chris, i think we also should mention that you have written a New York Times bestseller and talk about it, but I would like to go a little into it. But so it's true to work on the passion test we have met and hit and reaches. We can also talk about that one.

Chris Attwood: 43:12

But the passion test is really there, i know We are already talking about it?

Jesper Conrad: 43:17

No, but what I would love to talk about, about passion, i will come to in a second, But my by working together with you in that period. You were really difficult to get hold of in the first two weeks of January and you still are, and that is about you going on the silent retreat.

Chris Attwood: 43:38

It's another one of my rituals, it is, but.

Jesper Conrad: 43:42

Chris, i am still. I maybe I should, maybe you should try it. But in my mind I'm like I have two things. I'm like I am not sure. I want to be alone with what's in my mind for a long time. I'm not sure. And so if you can talk a little about why it's important for you and what you get out of it, and is it as terrible in the start as I would imagine?

Chris Attwood: 44:08

So so, first of all, so you're right, this has been a ritual of mine for like 30 years. I take silence the first week of every year And it's a ritual that I was introduced to by my teacher at the time, arshima Shogi, who brought to you I'm principal meditation to the West. I don't know that I would want to do silence if I didn't have meditation, to be honest with you, because my silence is basically I get up in the morning, i, you know, do my morning stuff, and then I meditate until lunchtime And then I then I have lunch and maybe I'll take a walk for half an hour, an hour, and then I'll meditate till dinner And then I have dinner, and, you know, dinner, and then after dinner, maybe sit quietly for until bedtime. You know, i won't usually meditate again right before bed, but so you know, and meditation for me is deeply silent, but yeah, there's thoughts that come and go and so on, but there's a lot of silence, there's a lot of peace and quiet, and so maybe it's better for me to answer the question in terms of how was it for me when I first started doing this some 30 years ago, and at that time, what I, what I noticed from silence to silence is everyone is different And I try and be pretty gentle with myself. In the beginning I tended to try and really structure it and stick to the structure. And then, yeah, there's a lot of thoughts that come up and a lot of stuff And you can, you have no way of releasing it because you're in silence. You know, lots of times we release our stressful thoughts by talking about them with others or by, you know, doing something which you're not doing anything. There's nobody to talk to except yourself. You can't really talk to yourself. Even So, you know, in the way I do silence, you don't write things down, you know you don't. I don't read books. Those are all ways of distracting, you know, potentially distracting you from what's going on up here, and so I would just have to sit in it. And over the years, sometimes I'll take a week of silence and I'm just deeply just immersed in bliss for almost the whole time, or the whole time It's wonderful. There have been other times when I'll take silence and my mind is so active that it's really difficult for me to just be completely in the silence, and so I've given myself permission. Sometimes I don't know if I should admit this on a podcast but I had one silence where I just gave myself permission to play video games the whole week. I really wanted to play and I didn't give myself enough time to do it when other things were going on And so I just gave myself permission. I still meditated, but I gave myself permission to play. Now that's not really silence in the way that I traditionally do it, but what I love about the way silences evolve for me these weeks of silence is that I have learned to love myself enough to give myself permission to do what feels best for me, or most fun or most enjoyable or most rich for me in that week, and most of the time it is just being in meditation, being in silence and being with myself. But sometimes it's look different.

Jesper Conrad: 48:04

But how? what they think? when you come out, what does it give you?

Chris Attwood: 48:11

Oh, that's the question. Yeah, why would I do it? So there's two reasons I don't get it.

Jesper Conrad: 48:18

A week of bliss wouldn't be enough in and of itself. We need, like a result. Okay, I'm not really, yet you could hear.

Chris Attwood: 48:29

So there's two things. I think. Well, maybe there's more than two things, two things that come to mind immediately. Number one is the experience itself. As I said, for me, being immersed in meditation is very blissful. It's very rich and wonderful, and so I love that in of itself. The second thing is that my life tends to have a lot of interaction, probably less than some people's, but still for me it's a lot of interaction, a lot of talking on the phone, a lot of interviews and things like this, you know, and and so to have a week where nobody can call me, nobody can write me text messages, nobody can write me emails, nobody can ask me for this data, the other thing where I don't have to show up for any call or any meeting or any presentation or any anything, is that's another layer of bliss. Let me tell you, having that freedom of just alone time without being assaulted forgive me for the language, but being assaulted by by other people's requests and requirements, including those of my family. I mean, i feel very fortunate that my wife, one of us, has to stay involved with, and I feel very fortunate that my wife has taken silence in the past. It's not as big a deal for her, and so she's happy to be with the kids. So that gives me the freedom to just take that week of silence to myself. But and then the, the? there is a third thing, i guess. The third thing is that oftentimes, unbidden, during that week of silence And I say unbidden because it's not a conscious thing, okay, let me plan the next year, you know. But oftentimes, unbidden, of sort of layout of the year will occur to me, you know, thoughts come up. What do I want to focus on, what do I want to give attention to, what do I want to create in this year? And there have been years where I took silence and then in the last half day or so I'd still be in silence, but I would make posters of stuff that I, you know intentions for the year or plans that I had created, and I put them up on the walls or on the windows, you know, and, and so there's a lot of inspiration. There's a lot of inspiration that happens in that week, often in terms of what, what do I want to create in my life? And so that's another reason I love to do it. I would say probably the biggest reason is just the opportunity to be left alone for a week.

Cecilie Conrad: 51:07

We can all laugh, but in a way when we don't have to interact. We don't have to. It's not that I have like a mask or false persona, but there is an element of our personality that has to do with the outer world and and it is. You know, we have to pay attention, we have to adjust so that the field of human beings around us will not be offended, not be. we get each other, we have to make an effort to understand each other. And when we can peel that off and be alone for me it would not be a week, but if I can just have an hour, it's- or even a day.

Chris Attwood: 51:49

You know you could just do a day to experiment with it, but the it's, it's more than that. I think That's an aspect, cecilia, but I think the other thing I don't think we always recognize how many text messages or email messages or or phone calls or requests from our kids, from our family, from our friends, from our this, that or the other thing. you know that there's a lot of things pulling on us constantly. And and if you, if you, if you're really well developed and you have a strong sense of self, then then you're good at being able to say yes to the things that you enjoy and no to the thing, and lovingly saying no to the things that you don't choose to do. And I will just speak for myself, Cecilia. My sense is you're very good at saying no when you need to. For me, i also feel I'm good at saying no when I need to, and there's a certain Hole. It takes, if you will, it's not, it's not like a big toll, but it's just like I, my natural desire for my personality, my natural desire is to want to make others happy, to want to please them, and I am not able to always feel that I'm able to do that, and that takes a certain amount of emotional toll. For me, yeah, better for worse.

Cecilie Conrad: 53:15

Whether I say yes or no, I'm not saying that I'm being drained or overdue.

Chris Attwood: 53:20

No, it's not drink.

Cecilie Conrad: 53:22

But but the fact that I have to make up my mind. Does this make sense? I have to answer the the little to respond. I don't even have to respond, but I do get the answer, the question in my mind, which means I will start producing the answer and and I'm off my own path, so I see that being undisturbed for a while I would maybe be able to get hold on something, something more powerful or, you know, to put the train on You should just try.

Chris Attwood: 53:59

I think, cecilia, you should just try it. Well now we're a day whatever, and see what comes up for you. But the other thing I would say is it My sister's little crack?

Cecilie Conrad: 54:07

fairly small, so maybe not enough.

Chris Attwood: 54:11

The the. The other thing that I noticed is that we don't recognize in our daily life how much energy speaking takes. And when you don't speak, my experience is that it's really profound how that energy now is moving inside instead of being pressed out. That in itself is pretty profound. To be honest with you, they the, the level of rest, the level of relaxation, the level of of of peace you know just from not having to express and speak, is really quite far out. So anyway, that's a long answer to your question, jesper.

Cecilie Conrad: 54:56

Yeah, I love that We prefer long answers.

Jesper Conrad: 54:57

Yeah, no, a little about the passion test, chris. You have been part of. You have written the the passion test together with Janet Edward. It became a New Year's Times bestseller and you have created a whole business around it and helped so many people, us included. I remember back in 2015 when I went through the first passion test together with Janet, and recently here on this day where we are now, we talked with a lady, a wonderful woman, about a vision board and our dreams, and Cecilia and I looked at each other and we were like, oh, we don't have anything currently on our vision board.

Cecilie Conrad: 55:41

Well, we do, it's just all ticked.

Jesper Conrad: 55:43

Yeah, it's all ticked.

Chris Attwood: 55:45

It's number one.

Cecilie Conrad: 55:46

We realized full solar eclipse. We haven't done that yet. But that's the only one left.

Jesper Conrad: 55:52

So, so, so, and it came as kind of a surprise and and also with a lot of gratefulness that that we are today in a place in our life where we are living our past dreams. But there is wrong somehow.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:11

Yes, I want some new dreams.

Jesper Conrad: 56:14

I want some new dreams.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:17

Outdated dreams.

Jesper Conrad: 56:20

It's kind of fun when you when I, dreamt about this life. You of course don't. It is a dream, it is something that is in the future and almost feels of obtainable. But when you're there that's the normal amount of stress and things and you still have to do the dishes and all that. But we realize that that we are now living our passions and part of the living.

Chris Attwood: 56:48

You're living the dream. That's what they say.

Jesper Conrad: 56:51

Yeah, and part of that is I want to to give my gratitude to the work you created with Janet, because part of that is getting clear on them, as I did back then. So, yeah, i just wanted to really really say thank you for the work you created there, and could we talk a little about passion and why it's important?

Chris Attwood: 57:16

Yeah, yeah. Well, i think you spoke to the most important thing, i think, which is the passion test, is about gaining clarity about what it is that matters most to you in your life, and in terms of. You know, many people do say, i mean, we do think in terms of dreams, and there's nothing wrong with that The you know, as you know, vision boards and and and passion pages writing out what your future life might look like when you're living your passions. All that's part of the passion test process, and Janet and I have always defined passion a little differently than what people, other people, many other people do, and that we say that your passions are the things that you love and care about most. And we define passion that way because then, when you're doing things that connect you to what you love and care about most, you feel passionate. Okay, that's the idea. So, what do you love and care about most? Well, maybe I can safely say, part of it for you guys is spending. Spending rich, quality, amazing times with your family, with your kids. You know right, and so then then, out of that, so let's just say that's a passion for Jesper and Cecilia, then you don't have, you don't have to think so how do we do that? What ways can we do that that feel good? And it could be in terms of work, like, jesper, you get you know I love how you got you know a satellite dish so you could do you could do your work anywhere on top of the bus, you know whatever. So how do I organize my life so I can do this and create this rich quality, amazing experiences with my family? you know, and you guys have done a really good job, i think, of figuring out creative, interesting ways to do that. You know, and the. So the value of the passion test from my perspective is is really for most people not everyone, but for most people they have lots of things sort of swirling around. I like this, i like that that feels good, i like that these people are important to me, those that thing, i'd like to learn, whatever. But the minds can only hold five to seven things at one time, and so the passion test helps you take this swirl of all these things you love and care about and then say of those, which are the five that really matter the most to me, which are the five that that feel best to me. And our experience is, if you can. When you nail those five, all the other ones tend to come along automatically, you know. But by by nailing the five, your brain can hold those five. You know you can hold five to seven things in your mind And that means that you can give attention to them. Why do most people not live their passions? Because, even if they know what they are, they don't give attention to them. You know they don't give attention to how do I connect my life with the things I love and care about most. You guys are great models of that. You know of how, how you do that. But I think the passion test is valuable because you know, just to quote the statistics, that only 15% of the global world's working population is actually passionate, excited about the work they do. 85% are not. It is really sad you know, And so the passion test is really for people who make the decision. I want to be part of that 15. I don't want to grow that 15%. I don't want to be part of this. 85% is doing things for the money, or because you're supposed to, or because you were told you had to, or you know all the reasons that people do things that they don't love doing, and I think we feel very fortunate that by now, over a million people have been impacted by the passion test, have gone through the past this process, that we have 4500 past this facilitators around the world and 65 plus countries, and I think it's just because it's a simple way to get clear on what you love and care about most. And then the secret you know we, we, you know this. Yes, for us, cecilia, i'm sure you've heard it as well The secret that guarantees your passionate life is, whenever you're faced with a choice, a decision or an opportunity, choose in favor of your passion. Yeah, now, you can only do that when you know what your passions are. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:01:45

What's the best?

Jesper Conrad: 1:01:46

Yeah, and the other one we're all to use is sometimes when I in my own life, get stressed off about something, it is the intention attention, no tension. If you can mention a little about that, chris, yeah, yeah.

Chris Attwood: 1:02:02

We call it the passion test formula for creating anything you want to have in your life. You know, most people, anybody who's successful, i'll say, has pretty well nailed the passion and attention piece. You know, because if you're successful, you know you have to figure out what is it that I want to do? how am I going to do it? And then you have to put attention on making it happen, implementing it. You know, and there's millions of examples of successful people in the world who've done that, but unfortunately there's also millions of people who've ended up stressed out, divorced, you know, really unhappy in the midst of their success. I mean, i think of what was his name? Adolf Merkel. I think was his name $9 billion billionaire, 9 billion Euro billionaire from Germany who, when he thought he was losing half a billion dollars from an investment and the banks were calling in all of his loans and he thought his life was collapsing, he threw himself in front of a train. You know, i mean that's not success. Some people say $9 billion. The guy should be happy, but he wasn't right. So there's a lot more than money, obviously. That goes into, as you know, of course, there's a lot more than money. That goes into happiness and fulfillment, and what we have seen is that the passion test provides a simple, easy way for people to get clear about what they really care about and then design their life around it. And intention, attention. The piece that's missing is then, once you've done everything that you can think to do, no tension, let go, surrender, trust that life will organize things in a way that's going to benefit you, whether it's what you think you want or not. That's a whole different thing, but it will organize things so that you benefit, so that you grow, so you expand, so that you have the opportunity to become a more self-directed person, if I can use that, you know.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:04:05

And for me also, the no tension is about getting back to the trust that I might have an idea what's most important for me. I might have several ideas about how to get there, but at the end of the day, i'm not in charge. Something is bigger and more intelligent than me and I have to trust that. So if I get too focused on something specific has to happen or has to be in a specific way, i suffer and I make people around me suffer. Actually, be honest about that. But if I say this is what I want, this is how I want it, this is how I think it should be, but if it's not, i'm okay. The last part is really important because I might be wrong And sometimes we forget that we get so focused on what we think that we forget. Maybe we're not that smart.

Chris Attwood: 1:05:06

Yeah, So you know, you guys may remember that part of the fascist process. we encourage people to make little cards, called passion cards. When my life is ideal, I am, and then you write your five passions And then at the bottom of that card we always say this or something better. And that's what you're talking about, Cecilia. it's that recognition. Yes, I think this is what I really care about, what I really want in my life, And I'm open to something even better, if I haven't figured it all out for myself.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:05:38

Exactly, and I trust it will be better. That's the thing. If you think this or worse, then you're in trouble emotionally. But if you think this is what I think I want or what I can come up with at lunching, but if something else happens, someone's got my back.

Chris Attwood: 1:05:56

That's right, exactly, no, no, it's great freedom, great freedom. So you know, this thing of whenever you're faced with a choice, decision or opportunity and choosing favor of your passions is so important, i mean. And you can't do that unless you know what your passions are. That's why the past is valuable, but it's the secret, this thing of choosing consistently favor your passions. I mean, i can't tell you how many people have written to me or told me at one time or another that that completely changed their life, because it became conscious, you know, consciously. There's some people who are lucky and they grow up and because of their parents, or just because that's the way they're made, they choose in favor of their passions just automatically. But it's not true for most people in our world, which is why there's these statistics, you know.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:06:45

Yeah. So the the advice is go do the passion test everyone. Yeah Well and at home you can do it yourself If you don't want to go through a process with other people. just get five things. Oh, it's too bad.

Chris Attwood: 1:07:02

I don't have it up now, but within a week we will have a new homepage on the passion test dot com and Janet is taking people through the past. She has a video where she walks you through the taking the passion test. It's completely free, there's no cost. She decided she wanted to make that available to everyone.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:07:19

And then it's up in a week, but then it will be up when it's called Okay.

Chris Attwood: 1:07:24

Yeah, yeah, within a few days.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:07:26

we should have it. That's great Yeah.

Chris Attwood: 1:07:30

And then and then, if people want to, they can enter their five passions on that page And then and then it'll be taken to another page where they can learn how to score their passions. Score, as you guys know, scoring your passions, saying to what extent am I living these passions already. And the value of that is when you see some of your passions may have low scores. It doesn't mean that's bad, it just means these are things you haven't been giving attention to yet. They're really important to you. So now you can start giving attention to those things And so people can. Janet's structured it so that people really can get access to the past test process without having to pay necessarily. I mean you can still buy a course if you want, but but they can get access to it.

Jesper Conrad: 1:08:15

Yeah, chris, we tried to keep our podcast around an hour, but I have one question about We went too long. No, no, no, it's wonderful talking, If one thing about two two questions one question okay, because why is rituals important? And then the second question is how would you advise people to get started, if they want to, to work with rituals in their life?

Chris Attwood: 1:08:46

Well, i think I've already pretty well addressed why rituals are important. It's particularly for kids, as they create a safe space. You know, it's like you imagine a container that you could create, a container for, for living, that feels safe and feels comfortable for children and particularly young children. But our 15 year old still loves doing our rituals, you know So it's. It's that, and and it's also a way of reinforcing things that bring joy to life, that would make life more full. So you know, our morning circle ritual that I shared is just a daily reminder that life is unbounded, that life is full, that even if we make mistakes, we, that's okay. You know that we don't have to worry that we screwed up our life. You know it's so. It's a way of the ritual provides a way of consciously incorporating things into your life that you know, that you know from experience, help make life richer. That's all. You know. That's your hidden riches. And then, in terms of getting started, that's a good question. I think rituals, if rituals are going to be useful, they have to be easy, they have to be. I mean, most people have already incorporated the ritual of brushing their teeth in the morning, for example, or maybe taking a shower or washing their face or something Most people have incorporated the ritual of putting on clean clothes almost every day. We already have rituals, right. We already have rituals in our lives And we do those things because we find they're useful in some way. So the place I would start is with something that you find is easy but you also find enriches your day in some way If you're doing it for a family. one of the simplest rituals is finding a happy song to begin your meals with. Can I sing our song? Would that be too weird? No, it would be wonderful. I hope I. you know I never can remember it until I start singing it. I hope that I can sing it.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:11:17

You can cut it out if you don't like it.

Chris Attwood: 1:11:19

Yeah, you can cut it out if it doesn't work. So we this is a song from the, from Johnny Appleseed the movie, i think. But we really loved the words and it felt good to us, so we incorporated. So we go, we hold hands and then we say the Lord is good to me, and so I thank the Lord for giving me the things I need the sun and the rain and the apple seed. The Lord is good to me. I wake up every morning, happy as can be, because I know that with this care, my apple trees will still be there. The Lord is good to me, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, amen, Amen, amen, amen.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:12:08

Yay, Now we can sing with you next week when we come.

Chris Attwood: 1:12:13

Yeah, that's right, i look forward to it. So you know, the thing I liked about that song when we first picked it out is that number one, it's happy Number two. You know, however you interpret the Lord, you know the intelligence of the universe, whatever, but something is here that's worth recognizing and acknowledging. And then and then, if I interpret apple seeds and apple trees as just being caring for the, the light for the kids, for my kids okay, you know, those are my apple trees in a way caring for the things that I, the blessings that I've been given, being good steward of the things, the blessings that have been re, that have been heaped upon us, if I interpret it like that, then it feels like it's just well aligned, you know. And then the other, really the bottom line was is that at the end, after we say the last amen, we always all feel like yeah, and that's a great way to begin a meal. So that's, but I think the place to start is just pick something that feels good to you, that's easy for you and that reinforces something that you have found enriches your life in one way or another. So, does that help?

Jesper Conrad: 1:13:32

I think that's very beautiful, Chris, And I think that we should invite you back for later talk but, now we would. We would cut it because we should keep the hour.

Chris Attwood: 1:13:45

Thanks a lot for your time. You should keep the hour and 25 minutes.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:13:52

We're very strict in our family.

Jesper Conrad: 1:13:58

Thanks a lot for your time, chris, it was wonderful.

Chris Attwood: 1:14:01

It was so nice to be with you, but I love you. Bye, you guys.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:06

Send love to the kids, though I will Bless you.