112: Iris Chen | Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

So today we're together with Iris Chen and first of all, welcome. It's good to see you and meet you, and I look forward to our chat today.

Yeah, it's so nice to meet both of you.

So, iris, I saw you on this Unschooling Summit website and read the description and was like, ooh, we would love to interview Iris for our podcast, and what caught my eye was the term untigering and unschooling and how all that knits together. So I don't know exactly where we should start, but maybe before we can talk about untigering, we should maybe talk about what a tiger mom or the phrase is, if you can explain that first for people who are unfamiliar with the term.

Yeah, so Amy Chua, who is like a Yale law professor, wrote a book called the Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. I think this was in 2011. And it became a very popular book. People had really strong reactions to it because she was pretty much saying that the quote unquote Chinese way of parenting will help you raise like high achieving children, high achieving, successful children. And so she in her book it's sort of like a tongue in cheek memoir talking about her parenting style, and that's where the term tiger parenting sort of arose from. It's this idea of a very demanding, high expectation type of parenting with, like the goal to raise your children to be successful, also high achieving, oftentimes emotionally distant and yeah, all of those things. And so I think she is Chinese, american and being raised also as a Chinese American, second generation immigrant.

This type of parenting is like very familiar to many of us because it's just the expectation of being like doing well in school, obedience, not questioning that. And so when I had my own children, it was going to be like there was a lot about my childhood that I was like I'm not going to do that. We're going to give hugs, we're going to say I love you, you, things like that but then really still having these unquestioned expectations of how my children were to behave, how they were to perform, yeah, just what my expectations were in terms of, like, doing well in school, being smart, getting good grades, all of that. And so I continued on that path until, yeah, like, it's probably definitely a process, but I got to the point where I saw that that path was leading me to very dark places, both in my relationship with my child and just seeing what was happening to him, because I had all this pressure and expectations on him and it wasn't necessarily to do so much with academics at that point he was fairly young, but it was just my desire to control and, just like, instill absolute obedience in him.

Like, I had very high expectations for myself, had very high expectations for him and so parented in a way that was very controlling, very punitive, and our relationship really began to devolve and finally sort of came to a breaking point where I realized I went to a parenting workshop. I thought I was doing all the right things. And then I went to this parenting workshop and they were talking about neuroscience and brain biology and what happens to our kids when we punish them and yell at them and send them to a corner or take away their toys, and just how their body goes into that fight, flight, freeze cycle, because they feel like they're under threat and they can't calm down. They are just reacting out of that fear, and so for me, that was the first time I recognized that the way I was parenting, what I was doing, was actually causing some of the behaviors that I didn't want to see, and I realized like I needed to change if I expected him to change, to change if I expected him to change.

And one of the things you touch upon is that we are a result of how we were parented. I, when I look at my childhood, I'm raised in Denmark. That's a way different way of being a parent and also was then. But I believe all of us who have grown into becoming parents can, at some point when we have young children, be like oh, it was like hearing my dad shouting the same words at me and now it came out of my mouth and it is really, really hard to break the cycles, even though we know and feel what is wrong and right. Then I remember standing and being like oh, that's some of the things I have hoped I would never say.

Yeah, so I felt like I was becoming somebody who I didn't want to be, you know, even though I had said I'm not going to do those things, but I absolutely ended up doing them. So it's not just like an intellectual idea. I think we have to. There's some like healing work that has to be done, where we need to address some of the ways. Maybe we were raised some childhood wounds in order to like confront what's coming out?

yeah, but, iris, do you think that the stereotype I have had painted of the chinese parenting is this more strict and, as you say, obedient way of maybe being a parent and more obedient children? But I'm like, how much of a stereotype is it? How true is it? Because I mean, it's very rough to say all Chinese parents are like this, but I don't know if there's something about it, what is your take on it? I mean.

Mean, I think part of it is the immigrant community, maybe all as well, where you might have, um, immigrants who come to a country that is not their own and believe that following the rules, doing well at school, is their path to success, and so there's maybe a lot of emphasis on that.

So I actually lived in China for many years and obviously there's, like you know, billions of people in China and you can't say that all parenting is the same. But I think there are cultural elements where, culturally, education is very highly valued. In Chinese culture. This goes back to ancient times where they had the imperial exams, and so even those who were of like a lower class could test and become a bureaucrat through these imperial exams. And so, yeah, I think academics, that intellectual aspect, is highly valued in the culture, and also it's a very hierarchical culture in some ways there's the filial piety, there's expectations of how relationships you know just the order of relationships where the elders are shown respect and stuff like that, and so there are aspects that are culturally resonant, I think, but of course there's always exceptions, yeah, I remember when it came out Tiger Mountain Book, it was a big deal.

There was a lot of talk about it back in Scandinavia.

Oh.

How that was.

Yeah, it's interesting because it's also a stereotype, I guess, of Scandinavian parenting and it's sort of like in contrast to tiger parenting, wouldn't you say?

yeah, yeah, but I mean we lived it at the time and just remember when it came out, how different the style was to the. Even the mainstream ideals I mean we're radical from our culture but even the mainstream ideas about what a childhood should look like and how relationships between family members should be, and and how children should feel about themselves and how much respect there should be around their needs, and yeah, and so I think when, when you were asking me before, like, why do people tiger parent?

I think when you were asking me before, like, why do people tiger parent? I think that's what you were asking. I think a lot of it has to do with trauma, like historical trauma and cultural that's become embedded in the culture. So, even though it's labeled like, oh, that's just part of my culture, that's just the Chinese way, or whatever, I think we also need to recognize how a lot of that is based in trauma of like poverty, starvation, the need to assimilate if you're an immigrant, you're an immigrant Like there's a lot of layers. That when we recognize that it's rooted in trauma, we can begin to heal and let go of some of those, instead of just taking on that label. It's like, oh well, that's just part of my culture, or I'm Chinese, or I'm Asian or I'm whatever background, and so that's just the way my people do it. I don't think it's an inevitability. I think that's something that we need to examine and recognize like oh, what is the root cause of some of these ways of thinking, these attitudes towards children and towards our life in?

general. You mentioned being from an immigrant background and I'm just thinking the fear of stepping out of line. If you are in a new country and people are looking at you and you also look different, it's like there can be this need for control where you want to be a success and not step out of line so people can't say something. I can see how that can bring it forward. But then from tigering to untigering and then to unschooling, how can I ask directly how has your parents taken that? Because that is I mean for me, when I in the start, we didn't tell my mom that we were unschooling it was homeschooling was already weird. It took some years until she understood what we did and and now she's fine with it. But in the start I mean and that's even in the Danish culture it was a little weird for her like that. What is it? And then, with your cultural background, how did they take it?

so we were actually living in China at that time when we first started unschooling. So we were like miles away from my family, which in some ways created some distance. So they were they were not always like, they didn't have a microscope on us, they couldn't see what we were doing at all the times, and so we just treated it sort of like an experiment, because we were foreigners, like even though we're ethnically Chinese, my husband and I, we we didn't have the same rights as the local families, so we couldn't get our children into the local public schools, so the the access to institutions and schooling and everything was different. We had to sort of like piece it together or like make up our own way. So a lot of foreigners in our community were homeschooling and that was just a normal thing, like many people who live overseas, if they don't have the same educational system, will either go to like an international school, private school or homeschool, and so we were already sort of like homeschooling at that point, also sending them to like a local kindergarten, montessori, kindergarten and different things like that kindergarten, montessori, kindergarten and different things like that.

So I think sort of like that idea of being an immigrant again or a foreigner in a different place also gave us a lot of flexibility to try new things. Like if we were part of that culture, it would have been very, very countercultural to do homeschooling or unschooling or anything like that. That would, it's like pretty much illegal there. And but because we were foreigners, we had more freedom and so I think sort of being weird, already being outside the culture gave us more freedom to explore and try new things because in some ways, like our options were limited, we had to be creative about what, um, the options could be for our children. Um, but at the same time, like my in-laws still probably don't exactly know that we're unschooling. They know that we're homeschooling, but probably I don't even know if their minds would wrap around unschooling. So we are back in the States now but they're very hands off and so it's like, as long as you seem to be doing well, you know we're gonna let you do your thing.

So I wouldn't say that they are necessarily supportive, but they are at least letting us do our thing who when you help with the untigering, as you call it, if we can define what, how you untiger and who you help with it, what, what challenges do they have? The people who who need the untigering?

yeah. So I mean because of my own journey, and once I started unschooling, I was realizing, like, for people with my background, this feels like very new. This feels like I don't know anybody else like me doing this, like none of my friends who grew up, uh, in my community, my Asian American friends. This is like no, it's, it's a wild choice, and so I just began blogging about it and sharing the challenges and the thoughts that I was going through, and I think now it's like my vision, like other than the conscious parenting aspect of it, which I think is really key to unschooling in terms of undoing some of those power dynamics that we have in our relationship with other children, where we feel like we need to direct and control and, and and yeah, like sort of conduct everything about their lives.

Um, the unschooling part is really like wanting to just begin to spark some imagination within communities like mine and address the cultural concerns, because there are cultural concerns.

We're like a more collective society or like culture, and so our relationships with our family is really important. It is important what other people think of us and our ideas of success. So all of those things are things that I also try to address from my cultural, my social location, as an Asian American woman who has lived in China and in the States and is wrestling with these different cultural norms and how to see them and address them through a lens of liberation, through a lens of healing and just doing the work that we need to do, instead of these unquestioned types of ways of behaving, just like oh well, that's just the way that has always been done, whether it's American culture or Chinese culture. Really, I think, having lived overseas, like being in these liminal spaces of like being Asian American and also being an Asian American living in China, just understanding that we can create our own culture. We don't just have to swallow it whole. We can examine it, see what resonates and build a life that is meaningful to us.

I think we have a lot of different cultures going on in this conversation. It's quite interesting and I actually quite struggle with aligning all the. With aligning all the, I mean we have Chinese culture if that's even a word, because China is so big and we have Chinese-American, and then we have unschooling Chinese-American, and then we have Scandinavian, but then we have nomadic Scandinavian, but then we have unschooling nomadic Scandinavian, but then we have nomadic Scandinavian, but then we have unschooling nomadic Scandinavian. The matrix is too complicated for me, but what I see is I think there are lots of similarities, even though I recognize the differences are huge between my cultural background from the far north of Europe and yours. Then I think some of the dynamics are the same in a way.

So the whole control aspect you talked about in the beginning, I think it's a very important thing. The mechanism is the same. We get a child and we get overwhelmed with love and with awe and with just wanting to do this really well. We really want to be good parents, not so much to impress our parents we just talk about parents but because of the love, basically because it's very important. Suddenly it's very, very important to take care of this little being and we want to do good. We want to do our very best to take care of this little being, and then the confusion comes. Then it becomes muddy. From there on it becomes muddy, and it does become muddy in a cultural way, but there's something about it that's the same, this control thing.

So the the tiger mom control and the tiger mom idea of success might look very different from the scandinavian control and the scandinavian idea of success, but there's a mechanism. That's the same. I want to do good. How can I ensure I do good? I can ensure it by controlling the situation. I'm the adult. I need to outsmart this. I need to get on top of this. I'll make a plan.

Or even I buy into a plan someone else have made and say this is the right way of parenting.

Because I couldn't do the whole matrix of all the cultures in play. I was looking for similarities and I think that dynamic might be the same yeah for sure.

I think power like on my journey of untangering power is something I'm constantly examining because it's definitely in play in a parent-child relationship, and I guess during my tiger parenting days I was like, well, that's the way it's supposed to be, that makes complete sense, because a child is cannot make good decisions and so a parent has to step in and make those decisions for them.

And I think, just on this journey that I've been on, really recognizing the adultism, the dehumanizing way that we see children that allows us to justify using control over them is because we don't actually see them as human beings who are worthy of dignity and respect, and so we feel like, out of quote-unquote love, we can use our power over them. And so something that I write about in my book is something that I'm always like thinking about is like how can we be in power with relationships with children, rather than power over, and it doesn't matter I'm gonna say this and I'll see if I agree with it it doesn't matter what our intentions are in such a way that dehumanizes them, that disrespects them, that doesn't honor their agency and their own sense of self?

then it's like a very paternalistic way of looking at children and looking at our role as parents, although sometimes it's so much easier to just say I'm right, you're wrong, and do it this way when you have the anxiety or fear when you're adulting, if that's a word. Sometimes I don't do it a lot now, but when I look back of the way I've been a dad, I can see that, based on fear, head is the shaming, sometimes Trying to kind of shame them to do something, and I hate when it happens, but it do happen and I believe that being aware of it is a giant step in parenting, that you sometimes aren't the best versions of yourself. Sometimes we mess up and it's actually really difficult to be a parent. I think I try to do my best.

I think so much of parenting is like holding a mirror, like our child holds a mirror up to us, up to us and maybe parts of ourselves that were unseen or were shut down.

You know, like if we were shamed for a particular type of behavior, then there is that reaction that trigger that fear that our child is going to experience that shame too for doing whatever they're doing, and so we want to correct it so that they don't feel shame. But we're using shame to help them avoid shame. It's like this really vicious cycle. But yeah, I love that, just that awareness that a lot of what is brought up for me, at least in my parenting, has to do with myself. It's really not about whether or not my child cuts his hair, even though it's like to me a wild mop, right, but why do I want to control the situation? Why do I want to fix it? Or if he's completely happy with it, it's because of my own shame, it's because of my own fear of being shamed, and so, like I think a lot of the work that we have to do as parents is to slow down enough to address some of our own wounds so that we're not projecting it onto our children on the same page here.

you're unschooling, we're unschooling and we've done our de-schooling and we're somewhere actually very far away from the adulting and all these things. And of course, it still has an ugly, I don't know. There's some scar tissue that will never go away. So we make our mistakes, sure, um, but I think it's. It's always very interesting to talk about the gray zones, or when is it still somewhat relevant? I usually use the word regulate and my children are now so old that they understand the unschooling concepts and they can stop me if I get off my own track. But I can also say I'm going to regulate you now because I think I know better about this situation and this is my regulation. I'm going to tell you to be more quiet, or I'm going to tell you to change your clothes before we leave now, because we're going to a business meeting and this is officially a lunch but actually it's a business meeting and you cannot wear that shirt because it's not appropriate.

Whatever, I think sometimes we are the adults, sometimes we do know better and sometimes we have to. Even I could even say should. I think on my own podcast here about freedom, I could say should. Sometimes we should regulate, sometimes it's all right, and I think it's very interesting to find out what foot do we stand on when we do that? Because I think it's about the philosophy behind it and the vibe of it more than it's about whether I. Sometimes I have never, but if I ever told my children to cut the hair, I would there would be good reason for it. I would. I wouldn't be able to tell them, I would ask them politely, you know, maybe to comb the hair.

I, I would, there would be good reason for it.

I would, I wouldn't be able to tell them.

I would, I would ask them politely, you know, maybe to comb the hair so yeah, I mean, I think sorry no, I was just, you know, interested in your thoughts and because sometimes when we talk about unschooling and how we should, uh, get away from the adulting and we should pay, we should be respectful, and to me there's a little bit of yada yada yada about that, because I'm 10 plus years down the line and I get that in the beginning. This is very important, so, but where's the? Because we are still the parents. I'm not one of the children and it is somewhat my responsibility. Something about the situation is my responsibility. I don't know exactly what, but it's not like I'm the neighbor, it's not like I'm a friend, it's not like I'm any random person in the street. I'm not one of the children either. There's something to this parent role that has not a top down, but more of a burden, more of a.

I think, actually, gordon. I have the pleasure of working close together with Gordon Neufeld and he often says that as a parent, you are the answer and sometimes you need to fake it if you don't feel you have the answer, but for the children you are the answer, you're the one who they look at and who should know. And in that line, sometimes when we have had a dialogue with our kids and I actually remember a situation where they said mom, dad, I actually don't need the whole explanation right now. Just say yes or no when I feel the need for explaining why this decision is like it is or why this is the good thing, and they're like just point me in the direction. I trust you, it's's good enough. Just don't give me all that long, long explanation right now. I'm too tired, but I think there's something about this that it's difficult to try to untiger, to use your word, and then still be the one with the answer and the one your children should be able to go to for trust and a pointer in life.

Yeah, I mean, I think it is important for us to recognize that, like again, we are talking about power and that we as parents do have power, and that's not a bad thing. But it's like how we use our power, you know, and because, yeah, like, what does it mean to share power in a relationship? I don't think it's like a formula, it's not like in every situation or you should never do this or you should always do that. I think in every relationship it's like a dance, it's communication. Like sometimes you're going, like, even with a partner, sometimes you're going to like grab a coffee for them even though they didn't ask for it, or, like you know, have them like bring a jacket for them just out of thoughtfulness and a care for them.

So I think it's not always like, oh, we can never sort of say what we think or or make suggestions, or guide, or lead or um, I do think we should, like you know, hopefully avoid control as much as possible. But again, it's this dance. It's like sometimes, sometimes the child will have a say and sometimes the parent will have a say, and like the way I talk about it in my book is like give and take. It's a give and take relationship. So it's not always give, it's not always give in for the parent where it's just like, okay, just do whatever you want, because that's not what a relationship is. If we're just like separate islands, then then you can do whatever you want and I can do whatever I want and like it.

It doesn't intersect at all. But because we are in relationship, there's, um, just this dance, this tension that we have to negotiate together about, like my needs, your needs, our family's needs, you know, social expectations, all of all of that. And so, again, like not relying on these hard and fast rules, about like, oh, you should never make your job, do whatever. But I think there's like what are the ways that build connection and build relationship that have less to do with control and power and more to do with love and support? And like, okay, I've experienced this world longer than you have and I may have some insight that you don't know, and I'm going to bring that to this conversation or to this decision and trust, and hopefully there's enough trust as a foundation in that relationship where the child will, you know, maybe defer to us, or trust in our leadership and guidance in the moment.

What have been the biggest part of your healing journey, to use that word. When you went down to de-schooling, saw this need for, for a change in your ways. Um and so what? What has moved you the most when you look back at the mom you were versus the mom you are today?

that's a great question. I, I think I'm just so grateful for the relationship that I have with my children now, because at that point when.

I like hit rock bottom. It was really bad. It was like, oh, I do not enjoy parenting. I do not know if I enjoy my child right now. So it was like really, yeah, not a fun place to be as a parent.

But now my children are 17 and 15 now and I'm just like so grateful we have like a just a great relationship and, um, yeah, so I think that healing and that connection, that repair that has happened in my relationship with my children, is like so such, like I don't know, a sign to me that this is the way At least it was for my family, for my family. And I think another thing is like, yeah, my personal healing journey with myself because I grew up tiger parented and I grew up doing very well, so like succeeding in all the ways that I was expected to succeed, but my relationship with myself was so fractured and through unschooling, through this whole process of untigering, really feeling like I'm being put back together, where, like the things that I'm trying to do with my children, I'm also like reparenting myself, like, oh, I get to have a voice here or I get to think about what my wants and desires are where.

I've never had the freedom to do that. I get to pursue joy. I get to rest. I get to not be perfect. I get to be compassionate with myself. Like all these ways that I'm trying to parent, reparent my children, I'm also reparenting myself and have definitely experienced the transformation in my own life, apart from just parenting can't help but thinking I don't know this be annoying, but I hear it and I agree the relationship.

It's the most pleasurable part of being an unschooler one of them that we just get these amazing relationships with our children. And I hear a lot of unschooling parents say that that's the big deal, and I agree, say that that's the big deal, and I agree. And then at the same time, I'm just trying to take the perspective of a tiger mom or someone ambitious, someone from outside the community, being like yeah, okay, so you like each other, but what about? You know? Will they ever succeed in life? You know, will they ever obey anything? Do they have any discipline? Can they get a job, all these things, and and here we are talking about relationships and healing and I just think if I had that other perspective, I would find it a little bit annoying to listen to Like, yeah, okay, good for you.

I mean you're not making any money. You know, show me what prices you won. You didn't win any prices, so are we doing a little echo chamber thing here? How do we respond to everyone else?

respond to everyone else. Yeah, and I think again, it's just like so much compassion, because I know that mentality. I know that mentality, I understand it and I also see it as something that I had to heal from. So just recognizing, like if our sense of identity and worth is really tied to our paycheck, tied to the title that we have, is very unstable and it's not a secure identity to build on.

And I know a lot of people who have all the success in the world and yet are deeply unhappy, have broken relationships, struggle, you know, with their mental health, all of these things. So just those external measurements of success do not guarantee a meaningful life. And I know a lot of successful people and I think, if it's working for them, I'm not here to tell them to throw that all away If they have, however, found a way to find meaning in that and they're actually doing meaningful work and in meaningful relationships and all of that. So I guess the way I approach this, you know, especially talking to people maybe with a tiger parenting mindset is not to convince them that unschooling is the answer cost of what it took to get to where they are, so that maybe they can begin doing some of that healing work is like, okay, what did it cost me to be successful, to do well in school? To?

Because, yeah, like I, I never recognized the cost, I always recognized the rewards of it, where I was like, oh, I was given all these accolades and the pats on the back and I was like a lot of affirmation for doing well in school, but what did it cost me? So those are the questions that I'm trying to ask, like where we lost our own voice, we lost our own sense of self, and at least you know I can speak for myself. But just inviting people to reflect on some of those things so that now in this, whatever situation they are in now moving forward, how can they live with more alignment, with more attunement to themselves? What can they let go of? What really serves them now in this life? So that's, yeah, sort of how I approach it.

Well, I personally agree. I was just, you know. I know that I hear the voices of the outside world talking to me, or talking to us, our community.

Yeah, and it's funny because, yeah, it's like a very practical you know how are you going to pay the bills. It's like a very practical you know how are you going to pay the bills. And those are like valid, valid questions and so I don't want to sort of dismiss them. Even thinking back to like a generation ago, with the first generation of immigrants that may have come and the choices that were available to them, you know, like if they had unschooled, what would it have looked like?

Would it have worked? You know, I don't know. So I think, I think the the context matters in terms of what we're talking about and how like are we moving towards more liberation? Because I think, for my parents' generation, education was something they did opt into, they chose for themselves, it was something that they wanted, whereas now, in this generation, whereas now in this generation, maybe it's like it's assumed and it's compulsory, and we children don't feel like they have an option, and so, again, it's like are we moving towards the direction of greater wholeness, of greater meaning?

And that can look different in different contexts. I think it's one of the most important things that happens when we unschool and unschooling children is it's a long process. It's many, many years and over those many, many years we have a lot of conversations about these things, about values, about what's my take on success. What does it mean to be happy? What role should education, formalized education, take in my life, if any, and at what point? Why would I want it? Will I pay? Pay the bills? What bills do I want to pay? What kind of life do I want?

These conversations we're, we're playing with life as if it was some sort of board game, traveling around, trying out different cultures, different ways, places to live, cities, countrysides, mountains, rivers, beach. Can we learn the language? We just try all kinds of things. So we do it practically, but you can also do it from just living in one place, but playing with. You know there's this mainstream idea about what success is, how it looks, what you're aiming for.

But is that the only take? How can it? How could it unfold? Could it be different for you? These conversations, I see them happening all the time in unschooling families and I think the children, they grow up, but at some point they know so much more about what they want, why they want it and how to get it, and at that point they can, like the generations before maybe did choose education, if that should be, you know, if that's one piece of the puzzle for them, one piece of the puzzle for them, whereas the mindless compulsory education of children under the age of 15 is a completely different story. So I think that's one of the great benefits to have.

I totally agree. Yeah, that's definitely been my experience, with unschooling in particular, because school is such a big part of life. I'm not sure what it was like in your country growing up, but in America there's like so much that is centered around schooling, that is centered around schooling in a child's life and in a parent of young child's life, that once you take that out of the picture or once you question whether that's an inevitability, then you are able to question a lot of other things. It's like oh, does it have to be like that? Do I have to have a nine to five job? Do I have to own a house? Do I have to get married and have children?

It's like all of these things where it's no longer sort of like what you were talking about. This mindfulness is no longer a mindless, unconscious way of living, living where, uh, yeah, you're just doing what the person next to you is doing, but it's like, oh, what do I really want out of life? What's what is meaningful, what serves me? How can I serve my community? All of those things are it? I just like blows the boxes, the walls off the boxes and I love the word that you used in terms of being playful with it, like, how can we play with the rules a little bit instead of assuming that I have to obey the rules?

but it's also a big responsibility to put on the people and our children. I remember I had like the normal kind of life. I went to public school and to a gymnasium, high school thingy, and then when it was finished it was like, oh, here's this thing called life. Now I need to figure out what to do and. And then we even remove the school from our children and say, hey, let's play with it, let's figure it out. Uh, I understand if it's a, if it's a big challenge for them, where sometimes, in my darkest hours, I sometimes dream back to a nine to five, a house and no need to figure it all out, no need to to think it through, just. But that's only in the darkest hours. The other hours I'm like, right now I'm looking out of the window. I can see, like the familiar in barcelona where we live for a month. What a gift, what a, what a blessing of a life to have created.

Yeah, and sorry I just want to go back like there's nothing wrong in my mind with a nine-to-five job or staying in one place. I think again, it's just like this freedom to to like be very intentional and mindful about what you choose, because that's the type of life that you want, and so it may look very like not counter-cultural, but if we do it with intention and we do it in a way that makes sense for us and our family, I think that that's fine.

You know, like I don't think all unschoolers like for me I I am not sort of an edgy person and I mean a lot of unschoolers is the assumption maybe that they're, like you know, sort of on the margins and more like granola and stuff like that. I don't know these assumptions about unschoolers and I think I love that there's the freedom to be however we want to be and however we want to show up.

But I think that is the beauty of unschooling is that we can sort of shape and curate the life that works for us and our families and our personalities and all of that

if we wind it back to the newborn and the wish to do really well we want to take care of them and we want to make sure we do this job well so that they are we can even go down that discourse and say they're set up for success then I think the big advantage of unschooling is that when they are 15 or 20, whatever some age where they make important decisions about the next stage of life they know what success is. They know what their personal idea of success is. They're not mindlessly following some external idea of success, because it can look in many different ways. Being happy and healthy, which is maybe a mainstream box to put the idea of success into, if you have a happy and healthy life, that's a success, I'd say, but that doesn't look the same for everyone.

And growing up unschooled you've had these conversations and you've had this space to evolve your own personality and to really find solid ground under your feet. So when you're at that age that my husband was just talking about, when you feel like, oh, now I have to figure it out, it's not that hard. You know what it is. You know how it feels. You probably also know how it feels not to be in a good place and you've been in a safe space for many, many years to work out how to handle that as well. So that's another take, that's an alternative take on being set up for success To know exactly what it looks like, to know exactly what it looks like to you personally, and to know exactly how it feels when it's not success, how to handle that as well. That's being set up. Yeah, I'd say.

Iris how to handle that as well. That's being set up. Yeah, I'd say. Iris, what would the first step of untigering be? If there's a tiger mom out there who have heard about you, or listening to the podcast, what is your like? Hey, this is the first step. This is what you should do.

Oh, wow, I don't know. I think I like to get to the root of the problem. Sometimes it's not the easiest step, but I think it's pretty foundational and I think, again, it has to do with our relationship with ourselves. Like a tiger parent is somebody who probably has really high expectations for themselves, who is perhaps a perfectionist, perhaps, uh, afraid of failure, um, maybe has a lot of anxiety. So, like, I think it. To me it would go back to the reparenting of our relationship with ourselves. Like, just how is one way that you can show more compassion towards yourself today? So, instead of like, oh my gosh, I'm so horrible because I I did, did you know, failed in some ways, like, oh, like just a lot of compassion. I had a really rough morning, I didn't get enough sleep, and again, it's not like a way to excuse our behavior, but just to, um, have a lot of empathy, grow, grow our empathy for ourselves.

I love it, yeah, yeah. And for people who want to know more about you and your work, how do they find you If you can name drop your book and your websites, et cetera?

Yes, so my website is untigeringcom. My book is Untigering Peacefulering peaceful parenting for the deconstructing tiger parent, and you can find that um anywhere that or most places that books are sold, I'm not sure about internationally, but um also online bookstores, and I'm also on social media at untagering.

But yeah.

Fantastic. Untagering is the word.

It should be easy for people. It was a pleasure having you today. Thanks a lot for your time.

Yeah, I had a great conversation with you. Thank you so much.