107: Jessica Joelle Alexander | The Danish Way of Parenting

Jesper Conrad: 0:10

Today we're together with Jessica Joel Alexander. First of all, welcome and it's good to see you.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 0:16

Thank you, it's good to be here.

Jesper Conrad: 0:18

We would like to talk about your book Parenting the Danish Way, but how did you end up?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 0:23

in Denmark. Well, my husband is Danish, but I actually met him in Brussels, and so more than 20 years ago we got married in Florida, we moved to Norway, we moved to Norway, we moved to Italy and then we moved to Denmark. So we've been around Not quite as much as you, probably, but we've definitely experienced a few places, and so I had the good fortune I didn't know at the time, but his parents did not speak English so whenever we were in Denmark, I actually was forced to learn the language, which was very frustrating at the time, but ultimately became fantastic because it really helped me with the culture, understand things differently. So, yeah, so, anyway, that's why we've ended up here. So my kids are speaking english, italian and danish, and now they're in the danish school system, and one of my main goals of actually getting back to denmark was because I wanted to give them more roots here and the schooling experience and your book.

Jesper Conrad: 1:32

How did that came to be? What made you think I I need to write a book about these weird dames?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:38

they are parenting in such a strange way well, interestingly, many people don't know this, but the idea actually came to me in italy. So I've always been very interested in different cultures and I'm a researcher and a psychology background and it's always been a bit of my, let's say, default interest to really study people and cultures, and so, of course, you become aware of how different we all are. But it was. It became extremely clear that in parenting there it was sort of even more dogmatic, some of the cultural differences. So, and I would really notice it if we would travel from country to country, especially when we had babies. You know, in England they had some various sort of set ways about this is how you do with a baby and this is. You know, in England they had some various sort of set ways about this is how you do with a baby and this is. You know, you give the milk before they go down and they need to be on this schedule, and and then in Italy it was, it was very sort of this is how you feed the baby and they should have little pastas in their bottle with Parmesan cheese and olive oil, and you know it was, it was it just was.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 2:57

It started becoming very interesting to me and, having been in the Danish culture so much and also lived in Norway, I really noticed a difference in the Scandinavian approach to these other approaches and and actually so as my kids were getting a little bit bigger. So I was really aware of this and thinking a lot about it. And and then I had, I remember having an experience in the, in the Italian, what do you call it? A needle like a focus doing like a sort of pre-kindergarten, which for me was so culturally different than an American, than anything I'd ever, and I just thought, wow, this is this kind of experience will shape the child for the rest of their life. And and I really sort of knew already then that I really preferred the Danish approach. I was already asking my in-laws, my friends, for advice on everything right, so like how do you get them to sleep, what do you do for this? And of course it's like put them outside and all these things, because everybody just seemed to know the answer.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 4:11

In Denmark there was kind of a way right, and I had read many, many books and I'd studied this, but I started discovering that I found that the kind of Danish way was the one I really deferred to. It was very basic. It was just sort of made sense, it was not complicated and, of course, every time I went to Denmark I saw the children and you've probably noticed there's a serenity and a calmness in children here that I don't know. I find you don't find in the same way tons of other places. So, but it was one summer I read in the newspaper that Denmark had been voted as the happiest country in the world.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 4:53

I read in the newspaper that Denmark had been voted as the happiest country in the world and we were on vacation and I had already been sort of noticing some of the ways my husband was interacting with our kids which for me was very Danish, thinking wow, that's going to have a positive effect on their life for their whole life. I was literally thinking that that morning and then I read this in the newspaper and I just think, oh my gosh, maybe it's, maybe the parenting is one of the reasons they're happy. And I think, as an American because our Americans are just obsessed with happiness I couldn't understand why. Having been married to a Dane for so many years, I've never heard this before. So for me it was just like an aha moment and and I was I wondered if it had ever been conceptualized, the sort of Danish approach, and so I started researching and looking into it and wrote to a friend who was a danish psychologist and um, and it didn't exist.

Cecilie Conrad: 6:00

So that was it, and it's become my life's work it's fun I remember I picked it up in some bookstore somewhere and it's one of these books where I'm like, yeah, I probably don't need to read this one. No, so I haven't read it, to be honest. And now I'm curious, but I'm talking to you so you might give me the highlights. It's just it was right next to the little book on happiness, so they use the words Luca and Hugo. If you go there, there are two very popular books and it's just funny how our culture it's like, it's hip, it's out there.

Cecilie Conrad: 6:40

People are looking at Scandinavia. We left Scandinavia, but the more we are out of Denmark, the more we travel, the more cultures we meet, the more people we meet, the more we talk about it. All the hours and hours of driving is a lot of conversation between me and my husband and our three children who travel with us about the culture we just met. How do they do it here? What makes sense, what doesn't make sense? What did we see? What did we not see? And the more it happens, the more of course we see what we brought with us, because we are from scandinavia. And yeah, I'm just curious now to what is that danish way?

Jesper Conrad: 7:20

because I think I'm not mindful of that no, also because it's maybe it's so rooted that we don't see it as a way. It is not a technique, it is, as you say, culture.

Cecilie Conrad: 7:34

You brush your teeth when you go to bed, right?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 7:38

In fact it's funny. So I wrote another book called the Danish Way of Education, but they didn't publish it in English because they said we're not interested in education right, there's less people that are interested. But like, I'm probably going to try to publish it anyway. But anyway, it's been published in like five other languages. And I've done some talks in Denmark. I had some schools hire me to do talks and I was like are you sure you want me to talk about the Danish way? Right? And they said yeah, yeah. And what was fascinating was so I did this talk. This was about education, like how it's different than the other systems, and it was like you just saw, like the light bulbs that went on, like like the. I really think there's so many special things here that if you're in the culture like, you don't see it. It's part of the fabric.

Cecilie Conrad: 8:35

Yeah, if you're in the culture like you don't see it.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 8:36

It's part of the fabric. Yeah, and um, and so for me, when I find something that, like a danish person doesn't notice, that I know is so different, that's when I know I found like a little nugget of gold.

Jesper Conrad: 8:49

Um, I will. I will wait to hear about it because it reminds me of. We travel full time, so we are around a lot, but we have been emerged in Italy, spain and the States and in Mexico for a couple of months enough to see it and in UK, and one of the cultures that baffled me the most was UK, because they're so close to us that I thought we were more alike in our parenting. Oh, and yes, oh no, they are so much down than I, but I didn't see it because, culturally, joke-wise, our way of having sarcasm, the irony is so close that I have seen some things where I'm like, well, that's weird, why are they still like that? Almost, and in the US, where you come from, it's.

Cecilie Conrad: 9:58

Oh, that was the largest cultural shock we've ever had, which is interesting. And where were you in the US? We were in California, we were in Illinois, we were in Kansas, we were One more, I can't remember.

Jesper Conrad: 10:15

Chicago San.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:16

Francisco? Yeah, I can't remember exactly, but it was everywhere. That culture was just so different that we could hardly breathe. But really I want to hear it. Can you do you have highlights of the Danish way Like, can you pull it?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 10:31

Because I'm really curious. Ok, well, so, and again, what's interesting, and the fact that you didn't read it for that reason is a compliment. So the book has been published in, I think, 32 languages, but not in Danish.

Cecilie Conrad: 10:46

And it's because I picked it up Interesting. And then I thought well, right, right, right.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 10:50

But that's what's so funny is like some people would ask me you know how do I get advice? You know it's not a way, it's just like call a Dane, right, like, if you need help, just call a Dane, like most will have a similar outlook. Well, I mean, I can tell you a few things with the parenting and then I think also the education is very different. But with the parenting it's like it's things like free play, um, but with the parenting it's like it's things like free play. So you know, I I saw actually that you guys had peter gray on. Yeah, he was like a big. So I'm comparing a lot the american way with the danish way. Yeah, and, and peter gray was like, like at the basis for the sort of research of why play is so important. But I knew already that play was so important in Denmark.

Cecilie Conrad: 11:41

Yeah.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 11:42

So it's. It's not, like you know, in America and the UK it had, it has. Now we're talking about it now, but but at the time you know, kindergarten and first grade, all these things had just become so over academic and I don't know what you say that very much about academics. So go into school early, learn faster, read earlier, do math, play almost could be a lazy choice, and you never want to say that. You just let your kids play, you know you want to say well, my child, my child, is studying mandarin with blocks, you know, and my child is doing, you know, baby yoga, and it's the busier you can be, the more you're considered getting your child ahead.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 12:39

And so I think what happened to me was I came with this American hat on, I was looking for my daughter's education. I'm not even sure I was pregnant yet. Maybe I was pregnant, but it was one of those things that my husband came in and was like, maybe we should have the baby first, you know. So I came in with my American hat on and then she was in school and I was and I was being like a lot of other American parents, like is she learning enough? Is she learning enough? Is she learning enough and my parents were giving me all the early reading and you know things you could do faster. And then I would find my the Danish counterpart was like, just let her play. You know, you have the SFO and you have these, the forest kindergartens, and you have the, and you don't have the same pressure, right? I mean, if anything, I find that this is funny.

Cecilie Conrad: 13:40

you say it because you know, I think we have it. We just have it to a smaller extent. I see your point and you're right, obviously. But on the other hand I remember, um, but on the other hand I remember. I mean it might be you might know, but we unschool and so we're out of that system. And I remember talking to someone I can't remember recently I talked to someone who had taken her child out of vogastu, so that's two years old, taken out of the institution. And the teachers there said don't do that, she will fall behind. And I was completely baffled I'm very Danish, apparently completely baffled with the idea. Even what can you be behind that when you're two years old, some two years old, two year olds don't even speak yet. What's the problem? How can you even have a measure? But they do have that now it's getting. It's going in the wrong direction. So I think your voice is very important, that we talk about the values and the reasons behind them the values and the reasons behind them.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 14:56

It's interesting you say that because actually I realize now, coming to denmark, one of my objectives this year is I would like to start to actually talk more in denmark, because I feel like I'm hearing this more and more. And here I wrote this book for foreigners. Yeah, teach them about this special I. I wrote an article. Actually, if you go to thedanishwaycom, I also have some articles there. But I wrote an article not that long ago. I said if the childhood in Denmark could become a UNESCO heritage site yes, please maybe 30 years ago.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 15:32

Well, even now, way better than it is in other places. So so what I see in the summertime, of course, because you know you see more in the summer.

Cecilie Conrad: 15:45

See it in the winter now, but you know it, what?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 15:48

what you see is just, I believe that there is still much more genuine appreciation and care and protection of a child's right to be a child than I see in other places, and I almost would like like please be aware of it and let's protect it, because I do think that you become a. You know, we're trying to raise competitive people. We're trying to raise competitive people. We're trying to raise confident people. I think you become a far more confident person with self-esteem when you're allowed to be a child yeah, like you're doing unschooling when you're allowed to choose what you want to study, when you're allowed to.

Jesper Conrad: 16:30

You know all the benefits that you get from self-directed learning, know all the benefits that you get from, from self-directed learning.

Jesper Conrad: 16:40

Jessica, I think my view of the world is probably skewed by the way we travel is we travel and we often meet up with like-minded uh.

Jesper Conrad: 16:49

So for us, uh, people in the states are so much further ahead because you are up to 8% of the people who are homeschooled. I know a lot of that is schooling at home, very classical, strict maybe even. But in Denmark we are less than 1%. So for me that is quite fun that the States and UK and some other places stands to me as shining lights inside our small bubble. But then I have tried to be on the streets where there's no children, because they are either in school or to extracurricular that is decided upon by a teacher and the mom is shouting at them to do better and all this. So I see it a little, but it's a fun perspective to really realize how awesome the Danish way of parenting is, because we moved away from a system we thought was too restrict, because we moved away from a system we thought was too restrict, and then we see the shining lights in Peter Gray, for example, or other people who, because in the States, have been a movement for way longer than we have.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 18:50

So I think my perspective is skewed, because I meet some wonderful people everywhere, of course, I think in America and a bit in the UK, but there's, there's much more. Let's say freedom to a fault I would say, you know, for good and for bad. So there's, there's, there is a huge homeschooling movement and there you'll, you know, you can find everything in the US and that's wonderful, and I think you, you know, think it's a humongous place. So it's really difficult to even compare size. Wise, denmark, I think, is so much more about the community. You know fellescape and these kinds of things. Again, for good and for bad.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 19:32

And so, america, you can be much, you can choose many different roads, but if you're going to choose the route, the sort of standard road to put your kids in public school and not, and you can't do homeschooling, or you you know what I mean like the, the, the still, the still standard is, oh, it really needs, it really needs help, it really needs overhaul, and I know that people are starting to become aware of it and I think we're going to see a lot of change in the next, you know, years for sure, um, so yes, so for good and for bad, I have to say um so far for us being here now, um, especially with my son, because my daughter's older, so my daughter was much more like academic and so she was okay in the more competitive schooling system.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 20:25

My son is much less, so you know he's more artistic, and so for us moving into the Danish school, I was really scared because I didn't know how it was going to go. Um, it's like I almost want to cry sometimes. He's so much happier and it's because they do so many different things than just math and English and history and so so for us. So, so one of the things I talked about, the Danish education, which I think is really different from like standard education that I find in other countries, that's the difference between, like Danelse and Udanelse.

Cecilie Conrad: 21:07

Oh, yeah, I'm trying to explain. Can you translate those? I say exactly that when I try to communicate with people from other cultures, what our perspective is and what we want. And because we unschool, we get a lot of questions about education because we, there is Dendelse and then there is Uldendelse, and that is not the same perspective and what we focus on is the first thing. The other one is more like a tool that you can use if you need it to achieve Dendelse. So, yeah, please go on. Can you translate this? How do you do it?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 21:54

how do you do it? Yeah, well, this is this is, for me, one of the just most fundamental beautiful things here um, so, so udan obviously is academics, so that's that's teaching english and math and and all the things that an american would understand, because that, for an american, that is education. That's when you go to school, you learn math, you learn English, you history, you the science, right. Danilza is like how to be a good person. Danilza is sort of like the human things, like empathy, and you know how to help each other and how to think about other people, how to be a good person, how to be a good citizen, and most of the teachers I've interviewed they say that it's often about 50-50. And so a lot of the things that, for example, my son is doing in school now are denunza right, so it is much more focused on, I mean things like they go to the graveyard and they talk about hans christian, like he's hans christian. Anderson they were talking about, but they were also talking about like death and and you know having them really think about it and talk about it, and you know journal different things and, um, you know whether it's doing projects where they're together and working on fellowship, which is community, like, how do you work together as a team?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 23:26

A lot of the classes I've been sitting in, you know, you're often hearing the teachers saying remember, we have to take care of each other, remember to take care of each other, it to take care of each other. Remember, it's like oh, you hear it a lot and like, as an American, this is really. I was doing research for this before we lived here and all I could think of was, oh my gosh, my son would really benefit from this style. And in fact, what's been interesting to see, um is again so in this system, it's not just about the learning, and you know you don't get grades until you're 13, I think 12. You're not doing a ton of testing, um, you know. So you're not in competition. Who's the smartest, who's getting the best grade, which is which we are in america from. Like kindergarten, we were getting sort of kinds of grades which is crazy if you think about it yeah I mean it would.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 24:21

It would be grades like you know. You'd be getting e for excellent or s for set, how you were. Yeah, um, and when he was in the american system he felt stupid. He had sort of labeled himself as a slow learner. You know, he felt stupid. He felt that's how he had kind of was feeling and you could see it weighed on him a little bit right After half a year in the Danish system you can just see his confidence change. You can see him being so much sweeter. He's so much more helpful, because it's also things like doing duksa Right, where you do chores, you help each other. You do cooking, you do melkunnskap, like cooking art.

Jesper Conrad: 25:14

It's a wonderful word for it.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 25:16

It's wonderful and I think suddenly he could be good in a lot of other things. Yeah, and he could be a good friend and that's part of Danelse. I remember asking a Danish teacher once I was in the school and I and I'm like where are all the awards, where are all the trophies?

Jesper Conrad: 25:37

what, what awards?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 25:38

yeah, because, in American schools it's like trophies, trophies, trophies. You know who's the?

Cecilie Conrad: 25:43

best in the basketball. Yeah, yeah, the competitions of course it's so.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 25:48

So you see, like there's all these signs of who's the best in all the different things, and I remember the teacher laughed and he said that's so American to me. He said if we had an award, maybe it would be for being a good friend.

Cecilie Conrad: 26:03

Yeah, yeah, and I was just again like yeah, we don't have the best student of the year or anything like that. Now Can I go back to the dental versus, because I think I might have a more conservative point of view, or just maybe, maybe it's an add-on, I don't know, um, because I think I usually translate dental to the forming of the person. So it's the whole journey from being a toddler to forming your personality and and and learning. Well, all the things you learn as you grow up and when you are in our culture now it's maybe your early 20s you are like, you're a young adult. You could, you know, go to the dentist or to a fine reception or to a job interview, or sit on a train and do all your things in your life and you kind of know how to handle all these situations. And and a person who, who has been formed well, a dental person, it it's this person also have. So this person has been educated.

Cecilie Conrad: 27:13

But it's only an element. You have your education so you know about the world, so that you can contribute, so that you can participate, so that you can win some bread, you can have a career, you can unfold your talents, you can help other people, you can hold a conversation, but these things, the academic education. You need that so that you can be a full person. But you're not a full person if you don't know, as you said, how to be in the community, how to be part of whatever situation you're in, how to read the room and know that this is not the dentist, this is the, you know, the reception for a wedding and all these different situations that we are in in life.

Cecilie Conrad: 28:02

How do we handle them? To prepare young children to handle death? By talking about it in school, because someday you're losing a grandmother or a cousin, cousin, or you're helping a friend who did, and did you ever think about it before? Do you know how to do? You know what to say when you meet someone who just lost someone? All these things is the formal person and it's just such a bigger deal for us here than the education such a bigger deal for us here than the education, and that is what is for me.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 28:39

It's so special and and it's it when I I wrote you said about what do you say when someone dies. I remember being in a class one of the classes team class hour, for I think it was class one of the classes team class hour, for I think it was sixth grade, fifth grade, and part of the the lesson was about how to soothe. You know, what do you do when someone's hurt and and it was a mix of talking about it. But then it was also like an outdoor activity where they were running around and like a stuffed animal got hurt and they had to come over and be like hey, you know, are you okay? And and like I thought, god, I never even considered learning how to soothe someone and it it, it was. For me it was very touching because it's it's. I wonder how have we missed this?

Jesper Conrad: 30:06

Do you know?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 30:06

like I guess. I guess because America was very religious and like maybe we always had religion, so we assumed that the character training or the human humanity side was maybe taught by the church. But it's, it's, it's just one of those things that when you really become aware of it, I guess also as adults we sometimes take for granted that our kids just know how to do these things. And I think that's where the blindness comes in, because they only know if we help them and we make it in part of learning, we make it a part of like what it is to educate a human being.

Cecilie Conrad: 30:48

I can wonder if it had.

Cecilie Conrad: 30:49

I mean, it's a good thing that you have this one hour a week for for the class and there could be a lesson like that, but equally, these things could and maybe should also be taught at home.

Cecilie Conrad: 31:07

And I think one problem that we have in in the scandinavian culture is the equality thing everybody's working, everybody's working not a lot compared to america, but it's still a lot of a child's life that they are not with their parents.

Cecilie Conrad: 31:23

You're picked up after your free playtime at the after school institution, which is great that you can play, but you come home and then it's quite scheduled before you go to bed and you go to school again the next day day. So I think a lot of this forming of the person that would, a hundred years ago, have happened at home cannot happen at home because there's no. There's no at home time, which means we have to put it back into the schools, and it's great that it's there. I just think we have to not forget that in the beginning the schools were a tool that the families could use while their children were growing up to to add the academic part of the forming of the person, which is fine if there is enough energy to form the person in the community around the child and young person growing up. And now we're running so fast.

Jesper Conrad: 32:25

We are outsourcing more.

Cecilie Conrad: 32:27

That we're outsourcing childhood to institutions in our country and I appreciate what you see. But I think there's a dark side to it. With the equality and the lots of work and the very young institutionalization of the children before they're one year old, Most kids take their first step not at home. Their parents don't see it. That is sad because they don't want the parents to know, they want to think that they are the first ones to see the steps. I think it's.

Cecilie Conrad: 33:09

I just have to say it, because this is our podcast that we broadcast on TV, and I host another podcast exclusively on unschooling and I think it's great, it's done. But let's not forget what is also lost in this. You know, I I have to be in a school system, go to Scandinavia totally, but maybe think about it even when you're in Scandinavia. You know there is another way.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 33:34

I think, I think, as you know, as always, there's two sides, and there's there and like, it's my, it's, I choose, I choose.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 33:40

Even in Denmark now, I'm, I'm very careful to sort of, um, I don't want to go down the negative rabbit hole, so I'm, I purposely try to focus on, because you can easily hear, right, there's plenty of, there's plenty of pushback and there's a lot of people that that, that, that don't you know that there's plenty of problems here, like there are every, you know, everywhere, um, I think it's, it's it, it's like for me, it's just it, because of what I do and everything like it helps me to kind of stay on the, on the things that I think are should be elevated other places, like I think is something we should be doing everywhere, and and like, and I didn't have my kids here when they were young, so I chose differently.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 34:21

And and like, and I didn't have my kids here when they were young, so I chose differently. And and I was able to be with my kids in a different way. So, so you know, it's not like I I had. I know exactly what you mean. You know I, I have some thoughts on on the way, which, which is another side right um go ahead yeah, I have a.

Jesper Conrad: 34:39

Yeah, I have a question, because you have lived in the different cultures and been immersed in Denmark and have tried this and have grown up in the States. One of the things we enjoyed living in the States for three months which is not a lot, but way longer than just visiting was the difference in fear among the parents. And there's also something about how, on autonomy, and maybe it's what I saw, but I think that American parents are more scared of what could happen to their children. And then I see life being more restricted. You are picked up by a school bus, you are driven to school, you're picked up, you're going to extracurricular, you're coming home, so the room for free play is not really there. And there's more anxiety where the kids in Denmark bike to school from a certain age and we're okay with that, we're not afraid. It's like, it's healthy. Go out, it's raining. Yeah, yeah, bring your raincoat, it's fine.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 35:52

So how have your experience of growing up in the States and then seeing this, where one of the examples is we leave our kids out in the freeze and cold, you know well, I mean, I can tell you, coming here it was interesting because I was in, we were in italy before, in rome, and there was no way our kids could bike, there was no way they could walk outside, that you have to drive everywhere and um, and it was interesting. In the first month being here it felt like a 50 pound weight I was carrying on my back had been lifted. I didn't even know it was there, because it's so much safer here. It's, it's like I, I, it was something almost unconscious.

Cecilie Conrad: 36:39

Yeah, I didn't have to worry about my kids in the way that I did is insane.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 36:48

Oh, rome is insane. It's just everywhere in europe with my kids and what we always say.

Cecilie Conrad: 36:51

we take the boat from barcelona to rome or to cvc and then we drive down, and every time we come to rome we're like, okay, now we make sure we don't die yeah.

Jesper Conrad: 37:02

Yeah, oh, so so yeah.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 37:04

You've been in the worst hell of traffic, so, so, so every day is kind of like, maybe not thinking about it. You're like, okay, don't die, you know. So I, I think. But of course there is a lot more.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 37:18

It's difficult for me to say, because I could also say, and rightly so, there is more anxiety in America in different places, and we do have every walk of life and we do, and of course it's amplified by the media and it's it's they, you know, you've probably seen Michael Moore's film about. Like you know, it is how they sell more things to make people scared. About. Like you know, it is how they sell more things to make people scared. If you're scared, you buy things.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 37:43

Um, so it's difficult and that, and that is one of those challenges for a parent that on one hand, right, you want to be more relaxed and and you should be like it, you, you know, and peter gray, and this let grow movement and um, at the same time, I didn't, I haven't lived with my kids in the US and I I can say that I would love, I hope that I would be that way if we did, but I can't promise you that I would.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 38:13

I can't promise that my anxiety wouldn't have overwhelmed me like it like it did in Rome. Now, rome is crazy, but but it was, it was. It was also sad. You know that I couldn't let my kids bike around, and I couldn't, I didn't feel safe letting them walk or um, and I really wanted that for them. I wanted them to have that freedom, and so for that also I guess I'm really grateful to be here, because I do feel it's a privilege. I mean, the other day my son, I'm in Copenhagen central and I woke up to the sound of his friend coming over with a basketball in the courtyard, screaming Sebastian and Sebastian goes and runs off and they go play basketball in the center of Copenhagen and I'm like, oh, what a privilege, you know we don't even see I grew up in the center of Copenhagen.

Cecilie Conrad: 39:10

We lived in the center of Copenhagen until we left. I know how it is, but I also understand. I've been to other places, many other places, and the whole safety thing. I think there's a. Of course there are many places that are less safe and Rome is insane, especially traffic wise. It's even I'm an adult and I am like will I survive this time we spend in Rome? Because can I even, will I ever cross this street? I'm standing here like an idiot. It's been 10 minutes, I'm not crossing. So it is insane. But I also think there is a cultural element of the safety issue question. There is a fear. There must be something deeply rooted in the parenting style and in the relation to being a parent and in the ideas of what the job is. Because the whole.

Cecilie Conrad: 40:08

You used the word autonomy. I wrote the word selvständighed on my piece of paper. I have a Danish day, apparently. I don't know exactly how to translate it, but I've seen how to me, it's normal to let a lit. Even saying that I allow it is crazy. If my 12-year-old or 10-year-old want to take the train to the other end of town or the other end of the country to see someone, I'll buy him or her a ticket and say have a nice day, I'll do it. I'm happy with the phones that we have now that we didn't have with the first one. We have a 25-year-old daughter. It's easier now that I know I can send a text message if I get worried.

Jesper Conrad: 40:57

But even before I was nine I took the train across the country all by myself yeah, but and that's my question- about, but that's my question about it, which is is there something in the way of parenting where we give our children more freedom, trust them more, that make us being able to release and trust them, and is it part of making it less dangerous? Because they know themselves? They know their borders in a different way, so they are not in the same way crossing other people's borders. They are not in the same way afraid of people going over where their personal space is.

Cecilie Conrad: 41:40

We're also back to this thing. You know be a good friend, be in the community, take care. Have you seen do they still do that? The big bus commercials? I don't know. When I was a child, the buses were state owned and every year in August, when school started, there was these big. All the commercials on the bus were take care of the children in traffic, because now and it was about, you know we have new people in the traffic, take care of them. And there would be pictures of these six-year-olds that will walk to school all by themselves. That was normal.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 43:09

Yeah, I think I mean. Mean, my theory is that because children are listened to so much more here, I find children are respected so much more. I mean, like you know, it's not strange on the news you see them interviewing children yeah, and their take, their voice is taken seriously. And I think when you're listened to and you're taken seriously as a child, you take yourself seriously. And I just find that the maturity level of teenagers, for example, is just incredible here. And I think it's when you're taken seriously and you're respected, you get it back. When you're trusted from very young, you become trustworthy. It's, it's really. I think it's that simple comparison.

Cecilie Conrad: 44:01

You know the, the obedient cultures but also, if you really get what you need and you're trusted and you're listened to, there's no reason to cheat. There's no reason to cheat, there's no reason to push back, there's nothing to push at, there's no reason to go out and make trouble or you know, because why would you want to do that? To get what you need, right. But if you do get it already, then there's not really a problem.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 44:29

But also in the Dänelse. There's so much talk about what does it mean to be a good friend about? What does it mean? What you know? What does it mean to be a good friend? What does it mean to be a good person you know? This would be talked about as well stealing and and these things. So I think this is what we also underestimate is the power of discussing the importance of honesty, the importance of being trustworthy and and all of those things which, um, yeah, I mean, actually I wanted, because one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you guys is because, um, in my sort of development with my own children outside of denmark, one of the things I felt was missing was sort of, uh, the denisa with digital citizenship, helping them with this phones and stuff.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 45:16

And before I got my daughter a phone, I really felt like I hadn't had enough preparation with her and conversations and classes, tima, and we were not in Denmark, so I felt like they weren't even getting the program they get here and and so one of the things I did was I did a ton of research to kind of get the basic values of what it would be to be Danit, uh, before I gave her a phone and I made like a kind of program with conversation cards to talk about, like, basically, how you cross the road in the digital world, how you're a good person, how you handle various situations, what our values were as a family and um, and it worked extremely well for us.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 46:04

I felt like it made our. You know, we had a relationship based on trust rather than fear, which is like what's dominating the airwaves right now about screen time. It's just fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. And I'm not saying that it's not something to be fearful of. But coming back to this idea of the danish parenting style, I think it's it's important that we arm our children with knowledge so that they can handle themselves when we're not there. Yeah, I think you're super, can?

Cecilie Conrad: 46:30

I. I think you're super right, we had a.

Jesper Conrad: 46:31

Yeah, go on, I think you're super right. We had a talk with Darcy Anaves. She wrote a wonderful book called the Evolved Nest and she talked about it in a different way, where she said in the hunter-gatherer culture you let the children play with knives, arrows, etc. Because that is how they get to know and work with them. It will be their working tool when they're adults. And she then added on but we didn't let them play with the poisoned arrow. And it made me think about what are the poisoned arrows inside?

Jesper Conrad: 47:07

Gaming, the computer, the messaging the social media the messaging the social media, the Danilson part have been let out of this, because it's almost like a lot of parents are. As you say, the fear level is wide when it comes to our children are playing computer games. I could feel it in myself also that I sometimes think my children have been playing too much computer. And then the whole thing about being on the phone. It's like, oh, you're on your phone too much, but what is the phone? Which kind of tool is it? How many different activities can you do on the phone which are fine, which aren't fine?

Jesper Conrad: 47:50

One part that isn't fine is the electronic bullying that goes on that people sometimes forget how to behave when they cannot see each other face to face. But it's really difficult because I sometimes feel that when I meet parents, it's like there's this group of people also in the unschooling movement where they're just like oh, the kids can game as much as they want, and I'm not against gaming, but I'm like have we talked about it? Do you know what's going on? As a parent, has it been part of your life? How are you sharing what is good and bad? How are you showing what the poisoned arrows are? And I would like to hear more about you saying you're working on this right.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 48:38

Yes. So I had this experience where I came to this moment where I think many parents come to, where you know that you have a rite of passage in front of you, because I think that time when you give your child more digital freedom, whether it's with a phone, you know there's just it's, it's. It is a bit of a rite of passage, I find, and I became very aware that I, whoa, there's so much I need to talk to about with my, with my, with my daughter, and I didn't know where to begin to cover everything because, like, of course, you wouldn't get a book, but I'm not going to sit with a book, right? So I thought a lot about what I'd seen in the Danish schools and Klessens, tima, and I just got all the information of what they, they're the main values that are covered.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 49:29

So, like critical thinking, good community, then go tone, good communication I call it communication because then go tone doesn't exist in english um, bullying consent, uh, well-being, um, I forgot what the other ones are. There's seven and uh, yeah. So I just I made these conversation cards that also had some dilemmas. So and I told my daughter I said, look, I want to go over these, and when we're through them. I think we should make an agreement together, and then I think it's okay for you to have a phone and so, of course, she was you know, she was you know kids, what kids are. She was you know, she was you know kids.

Cecilie Conrad: 50:13

what kids are like. She cut my arm off.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 50:15

Yes, so, but it was very cozy, like it took us about two, three weeks, maybe three weeks, and we sat down and we had tea and we had these discussions and and I felt very, very good about the relationship we built. I felt like we had covered some of the most important things. I felt she knew how to handle different situations. And then, as my son got a little older and I could feel that pressure of the time coming, it was interesting because he had an iPad that he was using, but he didn't have a phone or anything yet. And and my daughter came to me one day and she said mommy, you really need to do the cards with Sebastian. Yeah, and I was like, wow, okay, that's a big big thing, that's great review. And and my, my son started asking me to do them, so I had to elaborate them to make a gaming section for him, because my son was much more into gaming. My daughter wasn't into gaming at all but so I did the same. I created like a dinosaur program also with that and we did them together. And then, before he got a phone and and I know that there were two situations that having these conversations really ended up protecting him, because he knew how to handle them and I know that if we hadn't talked about it, he may have sat alone, which we know is way more dangerous than not.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 51:51

So anyway, so, having all that, my husband decided this is a very important project. This is missing. So he stopped doing what he was doing, and we've co-founded a company raising digital citizens and we've made the cards into a, into a whole thing. We've made the, made them. So, oh, nice, so they have. So they have, yeah, seven different categories and with questions and and answers, and a lot of them are just discuss because the idea is you want? This is not about finishing them, it's not about doing all of them, it's really about having what I don't get any grades or stars.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 52:31

No, no, stars no, no, no no test, no test not at all, and you don't have to finish them, and some parents have said they do one question and they end up talking for an hour. And that's the idea, because what I think is the missing piece here is we need to create a relationship with our children around the digital world, which is not going away. I think we also need to have free play and you know all of the things that I've been advocating for for 10 years now. I think digital parenting is kind of like, like you're saying, it's where the poison arrows, but what this is about, it's about helping our kids also be able to see the poison arrow.

Jesper Conrad: 53:13

Yeah, we are in a situation where, on some levels, taking the choices we have, cecilia have been home with our children. I have been working from home for seven years, so sometimes I can put myself up on a pedestal inside my mind being like, oh, we know how to do everything, kind of you know, and then I fall down. The further I put myself up, the harder I fall. And what I wanted to say with this is that some of the talks we have had with our kids we have had after the fact, luckily based on a strong relationship being there with all the work Cecilia had put into our family. And I find it interesting that people can find these cards and the program to get up before the fact, get a tool to talk about it.

Jesper Conrad: 54:15

Because, yeah, I know, I have, yeah, I sometimes have ended up with, you know, the really stupid of damn it, let's just throw that computer away because I fucking hate it, kind of attitude. No, no, yeah, pardon my french um, but I and that is the loss of control as a parent, feeling I, I cannot control this, how can I control it? I, I control the computer out. And then the day after, shouting it because I was angry, I'm like oh wonderful, yes, good parenting.

Cecilie Conrad: 54:56

Well done there, well done.

Jesper Conrad: 54:58

That will help Very mature. That was a good way to talk about it and I'm putting myself in front of the bus because I actually think that that kind of communication is more often than we would want in families out there, that we lose it and then we shout stupid stuff and we go to the extreme. And my child has actually told me that he had difficulties talking with me about his computer games thing and how he played because he was afraid I would actually do it. And did I have a bad day? After he said that yes, a bad week I was like you are the most shitty dad in the world. And then I grow luckily. Yeah, you were about to say something.

Cecilie Conrad: 55:46

No, we will, of course. I suppose you have them for sale, your cards, and they look really nice, and you said, people can find them. They can find them in the show notes.

Cecilie Conrad: 55:57

It's like where do I find it? What's the name? I'll put a link in the show notes as to where you can buy these cards if you want them for conversation. I was just thinking about two things and I wonder if I should. So they're combined, I think.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:13

Another thing I've seen as a different parenting style thing that I see happening more consistently in our country, countries in the Scandinavian style, and less so in the big wide world, is this idea of the dinner table, and there's a lot to it. So there's this idea. If you call a day, and how do you do so? One of the things you do is you sit down. You have a shared meal at the end of the day. It's very healthy if you're Danish and it's pots and pans on on the table. It's like it's a set table. Everybody's there, most families. You don't start eating until everybody sits down. You stay at the table.

Cecilie Conrad: 56:58

If you have a certain age, it's not like it's not rigid, but it's like you sit there for conversation as well. So if you, if you're a fast eater, one of our kids she can eat so fast. You can't imagine. It takes her like a minute and a half and she's done, but she's not getting up because she's also there to have a conversation. And you know we just sit and of course we didn't make them do that when they were two. We just can you do this for me please? We just you grow into it if you're a regular Dane, I think. But this is a culture of conversation, that's what it is.

Cecilie Conrad: 57:34

It's not so much about the meal, it's about getting together, talking about the day. It's fine, whatever. It's a culture of discussing things, what's up with you, and you can talk about your feelings, you can talk about your day, you can talk about your homework, you can talk about your friend or you can talk about what happened on your smartphone. And I just see in a lot of other countries that we've been to that this habit of having a daily meeting, basically, where you have a real communication, you have a real conversation and there's time for it. The older the kids get, the more time you actually have for it, because they don't need to go to bed so early and this gives space for these conversations. They take time.

Cecilie Conrad: 58:32

That's one of the things I say very often when I talk about unschooling that a lot of unschooling is carried by conversation. We talk a lot. I speak with my kids like it's a part-time job, really. This morning I was so lucky to have all four of them in the same room. We talked exactly about the digital life, how it unfolds, how we all feel. The oldest is 25. The youngest is 13. They have all their different relations with their phones and computers and it's just so interesting you bring it up today. Oh man, has that been a journey?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 59:04

Yeah, and I think one of the reasons why I made them was to use also a dinner, and that's where a lot of families use them, because In our generation we don't have the prompts, we didn't grow up with the phones, we didn't grow up in this world. So this is also kind of an education for the parents and one of the things I tell parents it's like and not for Danish people, because because it's easier, because we're more on an even level but what I see a lot of parents struggle with and in the you know where it's more like this right, I'm a powerful one, I know everything and you know less. It's really challenging to accept. We have to be humble here. Your kids are going to know way more than you do. You know. I give like there's a little parent booklet to kind of prepare parents, like you know, be open, be curious, listen, learn and, you know, take these conversations, but be open to really hearing what your children have to say. This is what's going to make them trust you. It's going to make them not be afraid. They can't tell you something. They're going to know you're interested in their world.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:00:10

Because what happens is so many parents because we don't know. You know, and this is a blind spot for many of us we don't know. Therefore, it's easier to say, oh, that's bad, I don't really know how to talk about it, right, so. But what that does is it creates a distance and in this way, so it's like I tell parents you have to know that your kids know more than you, and but you know more than them about other things, and this is the feedback I've got over and over again. The parents say I can't believe how much my kids know and I can't believe how much they don't know. And, and what's interesting is, the gap is that the parents don't know a lot about, because this is like what are cookies? You know, what are? It talks about a lot of, also sort of technical things, right, and, and kids know a lot.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:00:59

But when it comes to you know who are your trusted adults that you go to if something bad happens, or you know what, why is it? You know what happens. If you know what, why is it? You know what happens. If you like a mean comment, you know it's the same as making the comment basically like these kinds of things that that many parents take for granted, which is the danusa, that they don't know, and and so the idea was like so you can sit at the dinner table and this helps parents bridge, make the bridge that we don't have because we don't have the knowledge, because we didn't grow up in it. Um, and I think you know my, my motto is very american. Um, you know the whole don't say no, right? So we're saying you don't you ever heard that? Don't say no, oh, sorry, well, do you remember? Just Say no, the drug campaign from like the 80s, yes, okay. So all Americans know this, right. So we're saying don't say no, say K-N-O-W.

Jesper Conrad: 1:02:01

Yes, yes Very.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:02:03

American right. That's my little catchphrase.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:06

You gotta have a catchphrase.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:02:07

You gotta have a catchphrase.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:02:08

I don't have a catchphrase.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:02:14

But it's really how I feel, because I think that our default setting is just to say no. It's just what we do immediately and that's that's that negativity bias that we have, because we're afraid of snakes. You know, historically evolutionary. We want to protect our children, so we don't want the poison arrow, so we immediately want to say no and I'm just saying like take, take a second, take a breath and learn, ask about, you know.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:02:32

And, funnily enough, with the games with my son, you know, some of the questions are like um, what's your favorite character? You know why, what, what, why do you like certain superpowers or whatever? And we got into conversations that we would never have, because I'm generally not interested in video games. But I pushed myself and I got curious and I think half an hour he told me about who his favorite character was and why, and I cannot tell you how much it changed our relationship, just because I was interested in what his, he was doing and it's these things, I think, that are really subtle and it seems like such a basic was doing. And it's these things, I think, that are really subtle and it seems like such a basic thing, but I feel it's missing right now, this kind of. I think you're right.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:03:16

And if we are a little yeah, whatever in our expressions, it's because we are Danish and we have these conversations and we've had them for many years about all kinds of things, including the digital life, and I wouldn't say we've done well, because we've made our mistakes as well and sometimes we've been shot. I've been shouting fortnight has been a nightmare, no, but it has because, yes, it doesn't matter.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:03:48

We've done many different things. We had four years in our children's childhood where we did not use digital at all, which was so easy for me because I didn't have to cope with it and they were small, so I mean, I don't feel they really missed out. But we didn't watch movies, we didn't use any gaming tablets of any sort. I didn't use any social media anything. I would respond to my emails and my text messages and that was it. And there was such a piece and I highly recommend do it. Do it for a while. It started out with I had a complete burn, not burnout breakdown. I got very angry one day and I asked my children after my expression of my anger and I calmed down and I said can we please have one day, just one day in this life, where we're not gaming and we're not watching TV and we're not anything that you know? There was a life before the internet. It's still out there and that one day I kept going for four years, but it was only. It was only my decision for one day. After that one day, they went to bed and said can we do it again tomorrow? And we kept decision for one day After that. One day, they went to bed and said can we do it again tomorrow? And we kept going for four years. I don't think everyone would keep going for four years, but it's quite interesting to do it for a while and I think that was the big starting point of our long journey with these things. And this morning now it's many years ago.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:05:27

Those four years I had a very interesting but also and that's where I came from with it. You know we're like yeah, of course, because we have these conversations. We had them before the four years, we had them during the four years, we had them for the past 10 years after, and I just had it this morning over coffee. I think we spoke for an hour and a half, the kids and I, about these things, and, of course, we do it leveled. I find it very interesting to hear my children's perspective, and I have a relationship with digital world as well. So I have some things that I know and some experience, but I'm also another person. The algorithms attack me in a different way in some experience. But I'm also another person. The algorithms attack me in a different way, and it's so healthy to do it, it's so important to do it and it's so important to have that mindset of having these conversations. But I think if you don't have the equal relationship, if you don't have the strong relationship, that's where you need to start.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:06:33

That's the problem and this is where, like, really one of the biggest challenges, honestly, for different parents non-Danish or Scandinavian, I should say, uh is really this, because there tends to be this high power distance and that's just a cultural thing for, like, italian parents, I mean it's. It's very difficult for a parent to not know, not be the one that knows, and yet it's. This is such an opportunity to just let let it go. You know, because, because you create a different kind of trust when your child sees you also is being open, being vulnerable, being on their level and and like, yeah, it's, it's like I come from an authoritarian family, so it's something that I've I've had to really work on, like, I had to prepare myself for some of these to be like, okay, don't be judgy, you know, watch your tone, you know really to think about it, and I kind of coach some parents to do that, because it is really hard when you've grown up in such a different, in a different way.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:07:42

But just to say as well, like, the idea of like, raising digital citizens, the thing that we're doing, it's not just about the conversations, which is hugely important, huge, it's also about being in the real world, so, like, as we develop this universe. We're also going to help. We want to have like sections for the you know, the website and different things to help parents also have ideas to get into the real world, because there's so many parents that don't know how to camp, that don't know how to start a campfire, that don't you know some of these things which which, again, like like in denmark, kindergartners are learning how to make a bull, right a campfire. Um, in in other places, you know, you don't even know how to put a fire in the fireplace. So so it's also about like, learning, giving ideas and helping people also be in the real world not had a really interesting talk with.

Jesper Conrad: 1:08:41

I've written a book called the opt-out family where they have opted totally out and they have a family motto. Well, personally I don't think opting totally out is being in the real world. I think a mix is is good and um, but they had a family motto which was inspiring, which was um be more engaging than the algorithms.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:07

Uh, can I say nine things right now?

Jesper Conrad: 1:09:10

Yeah.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:10

Wow, nine things, whoa. I just feel like my brain is exploding.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:09:14

Yeah, that's some good.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:16

One. No one's more engaging than the algorithm. No one can beat it. Don't fool yourself to think you can beat it, no one can beat it I would have said one.

Jesper Conrad: 1:09:28

Yes, okay, that's also Danish parenting, where the dad just say yes.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:09:35

I don't think that's just Danish.

Jesper Conrad: 1:09:37

No, it's not.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:09:41

My horse here. No, I think that's a very important one. Don't fool yourself, no one can beat it. That's the poisonous error. That's one of them. Another thing is I just want to say and that's a feedback I've had from my children, it's an important one saying the real world is really cruel, at least in our family.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:10:06

Computer games are real, at least in our family. Hey, what do they say? The games are real, it's okay, isn't that?

Cecilie Conrad: 1:10:13

funny like so what do we talk about? Online and offline world? Or you know, okay, he's saying come out into the reality, which was one of the mistakes I made a lot in the beginning of my journey. My kids were like I'm on this amazing quest with my brother and three of our friends and we're, we're learning a lot we're exploring.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:10:31

There's this challenge, there's a dragon, there's a mystery. We've been working on this for 45 hours. We're just about to understand and unlock this epic thing, and you call it unreal. What I mean? That's not fair, because I've been sitting with the odyssey, being two-thirds through an amazing quest with you know something from old griefs you wouldn't have asked me to go out and play ball, but now you do, because you're judgmental and old-fashioned and and I took that. It was not a fun day, but I took that and I never called it the real world anymore, and I understand that you're probably no, no, I, I, I think you're, I just think it's very relevant critique it's.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:11:21

It's my second, maybe also a third of the nine. I felt was there, because, no, it's just they are right, the kids. Why do we call it the real world?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:11:31

but this is for them. You know, um, I've heard some digital experts and people play. People have called they're calling it fluid play, because for children like they grow up with, the digital play space is no different than the than than the play space here. Right, they move seamlessly between the digital play space and the real play space or whatever you know, the offline play space, and so that's that's why, you know, for them, growing up, it's all going to be part of it's all part of the real world. It's. It's us, particularly our sort of us as parents, this sort of generation that we're kind of in that gap between you know, the next, the generation that will grow up eventually, that will have had this as part of their lives, all their lives, and it is a very interesting change and transition and something, yeah, for our kids. We have to learn from them.

Jesper Conrad: 1:12:32

I am sitting with a question which is why, oh, but why is the Scandinavian-Danish way of parenting different? Did you touch in your research to the book on how it could have touch in your research to the book on how it could have what historically could have happened or affected the way it have ended to?

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:12:56

be or it's um, it's interesting. You say that because over the years, as the book has continued to be become a bit of a staple, um, I have been wondering more and more, also as I do research and I see the school and I think, well, how, how did this happen? You know, how is it so different? I didn't write about it because I, because I think generally in the book I stay away from too much like Danish stuff, if you know what I mean, because it was it was more to.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:13:23

If you say too many things about the Danish system, people get turned off because they think, oh well, I can't do that because it's different there, Right? So I carry sort of on a bigger level, thinking that people could just relate to and just kept saying, hey, they're the happiest people, Rather than say you know, it's a good social system and yeah, these things that people they go oh, I can't, that doesn't work for me. And yeah, these things that people they go, oh, I can't, that doesn't work for me. However, like having you know, being here and more into it, I think there's as I've started to look into it.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:13:57

I think there's something with this Leustrop.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:13:59

Leustrop yeah, there's something, something happened there that definitely shaped a lot of Leiners' thought. I think he's the one that came up with the Heusgkolen A lot of these.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:08

No, that's Grundtvig. Oh sorry sorry sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:14:11

Grundtvig oh Lusdorf is important as well, Both of them, those two, those two, yeah, yeah yeah, so there's something with that, and but for sure I mean for all of its faults. I do think it's like very enlightened here compared to a lot of other places, just in terms of how children are treated, how children are elevated and respected.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:34

It's how people are. So that was going to be basic thing really. Well, I don't. I'm no expert, but what I take away from from this amazing priest we had a few hundred years ago priest we had a few hundred years ago, he, he is the one who I don't know. I can't speak english any longer.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:14:56

You know, he's the reason we might actually not say scandinavia but say denmark, because he formed our country and he, well, he made, he was the reason for changes in our constitution and he made a lot of, took a lot of initiative, wrote a lot of books and did become part of a defining change in our culture. And his thing was that real people were real people that you know, no matter who you are. He's behind the whole denels' Begreb, the whole idea of we have to educate and inform everyone. So he had the Heuskool he came up with, which is. So it takes half an hour to explain to an American what it is, because I think to an American it just sounds like a waste of time and money if you try to say it in two minutes. A waste of time and money if you try to say it in two minutes.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:15:54

And he also was against how the school teacher had too much power in the little villages, because if the school teachers did homework then none of the kids were out in the fields picking up potatoes and they would starve in winter. And he saw that and he was like no, no, no, the parents need to be in charge. The family unit, not the individual. The family unit is the core of our population, of our country. This is where the hearts beat.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:16:19

If the family unit is not a unit and it's not working together and it's not powerful, then nothing is working. We need to get that to work. So we need to get homeschooling in the constitution, so that the school teacher is working for the family, not the other way around. He made that and that was so big a change to put the little guy, the average man, everyone in the center of of their own lives and in the community. He saw that we need to educate everyone. And that's another big deal you can talk about if you talk with an American coming from Scandinavia. We get an education for free. We're actually paid to take it, you get a salary.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:17:08

You know people fall down their chairs when you tell them that you get a salary all six years of educate, of university. You get a salary and then you get a hat and everybody's happy. You don't pay for it and and that comes basically. Well, he was a big part of that as well. Yeah, we want to educate everyone, but we also want that formation of everyone. So most people here, at least in our generation, but also the new, our daughter's generation, I don't know do they do it?

Jesper Conrad: 1:17:36

yeah, the high school, yeah, I don't know.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:17:38

She and her friends do. But do we know about the statistics? I would take that as my bubble um, but they go to high school at least once in their lives to form themselves yeah I mean my daughter is doing after school right now.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:17:52

yeah, and that's another thing which is just like, I mean, and that doesn't exist in any scandinavian country except for denmark, and I just I, I mean, I think it's such a brilliant, amazing, uh concept because you know the years that they go to after school. If they, if you, if your child does go to after school, it's just it's right at that time that they're kind of pushing away from you. Anyway, you know, it's like it's very normal part of the teenage years that they're sort of and and and. After school is so much, at least the one she's at and the ones I know about. You know it's so much about Danica, yes, and I mean 75% of my daughter's classes. I can see they're all done.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:18:32

It's like all Danica based and and just to think of that, that crucial time of brain development and formation and you know, and that they have to deal with different issues and to kind of get to know themselves, and it's wow'm like, yeah, I mean I again, I'm just I'm really grateful to be here, because both my children are are, for the moment, just really thriving and um, and I, I do see it so much because it's such a different approach to education and, um, of course I think I I don't. I want to keep my foot outside of Denmark, because I really like having the inside outside. That's why I was saying I kind of have to stay out of it, so that I don't get too in it.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:19:20

Yeah.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:19:20

Right.

Jesper Conrad: 1:19:22

The inspiration we get from being in another country. Living in another country is immense. For example, one of the things that I found really fascinating about the States were the community around churches. Some of our friends over there they went to their local church every week and that for them is weird because we are a very low church going country. But the community they had together, those families that met up there, that I was very impressed by, I really loved it. And then of course there's people saying, yeah, but then if you're not in the church, you're not in the community. But then again I, like you said, focus, focus on the positive, which is to see. I kind of miss what they had in that community. I'm like, okay, that could be fun to see. What is it they're doing? They're meeting to cook up, they meet in the park to play games. Like a really good community based around a common interest. Community based around a common interest and in in spain.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:20:37

I got my, I got my worldview changed about.

Jesper Conrad: 1:20:38

When can a teen move away from home? Because they're not even teens. In denmark it's kind of normal. You're 18, 19, you. You hurry away because you and you can say yes. They do it, among other things, because they have a maturity and it's cool. They know how to behave and or be as a person in in the world. But I also like to see in spain how they live together as a family until you're in italy.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:21:01

They never leave home, they just they live.

Jesper Conrad: 1:21:03

They, you know until they're, I think 34 is the average age that the man leaves home.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:21:09

I was just thinking. We've been talking about the high school and we've been talking about the after school and I kind of defined that the high school we. We cannot explain it in three minutes, but maybe would you want to say what an after school is.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:21:24

That's um, after school, uh, gosh. Um, after school is a school, and you have to tell me if I'm saying this right, but uh, I guess it translates I don't know, you have a child there.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:21:35

I don't. It's funny because I I've known about it for so many years and I even when I didn't know if we were going to be living in denmark or not. But it was always my dream to have my kids go there, even if we weren't in denmark. So we actually went to Hoy School every summer with the family in Denmark and learned about the Efteskola because we knew we wanted to send them.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:21:55

So Efteskola is like so it you have to understand the Danish school system, which goes up to age about 16, so grade 9, and then you have grade 10, which is kind of an optional year, which is very different to other school systems. We don't have this optional grade 10. So grade 10 you can either continue to do school or you can do EFTA Scola, which is this special school where you're not just learning academics, you're kind of also doing if you have specific hobbies. So like you can go for sports, you can go for dance, you can go for, oh my gosh, everything you for dance. You can go for, oh my gosh, everything you can think of. They have Efteskola. I forget how many they have, but they have a lot all over Denmark there's a D&D one I just learned.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:22:40

Whatever you are into. There is an Efteskola that has specializes in that and so you go for a year. You stay with other kids your age and it's not very academic. It's much more focused on this kind of growing into a good human right. There's a lot of talk about you know also what you're going to do with your life and getting to know yourself. There's a lot of communal activities, so the kids are really encouraged.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:23:07

I remember this really stood out for me in the orientation day. The teachers were saying our objective is in this thing we're gonna, we want to make sure that they're going from I to we, and that was wow and I and I think, yeah, so, um, it's really. It's kind of like a place where they sort of socialize, they get to know themselves, they get to know how to work with other kids their age. They kind of figure out a little bit more what they want to do so that what they do after 10th grade becomes more clear. So you know, maybe they go for music, maybe they go for, yeah, different things, but the objective is they sort of have a little more clarity on who they are as a person and where they want to go and uh, it's, it's.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:23:55

It's where a lot of danes will say it's a school where they go to mature yeah it's a very dangerous thing about the self-standard as well, because they are very young and it's a boarding school. You live there, come home. There are some weekends where you can's a boarding school, you live there, come home. There are some weekends where you can choose, some weekends where you have to go home, some weekends where you're not allowed to go home and it counts as a school year in the point system of being schooled enough according to the law. What was I saying it? But I think it's an important part that you live there, but it's not a I say the word boarding school and then it all falls apart, because then you see something completely different and then sometimes I say, oh, it's like a boarding school, but it's more like a summer camp.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:24:43

It's so difficult to explain. I've tried so many times. Americans hear boarding school and they think it's just it's not my daughter, not a boarding school. But if you live at home so much I'm almost like she comes home. And you know, denmark is small, so like you jump on a bus, you jump on a train, um, they're home, so and it's just, it's not boarding school, it's, it's like it's. You know what it is, it's almost like camp yeah, that's what I say.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:25:07

It's the other thing. I think it's like you know what it is. It's almost like camp yeah that's what I say. It's the other thing I say it's like summer camp, but for a year.

Jesper Conrad: 1:25:11

Yeah that's right, yeah, and to take the high school very shortly. It's kind of the same for more grownups, but with no school year academic parts. I went to in Danish they would call it Filmhøyskolen. In English they call it the European Film College, but it was the same. Eight months emerged in a hobby, with like-minded and the most amazing teachers, and focus on the Danelse as well.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:25:39

And you live there, and you live there. Yeah, you're like a job.

Jesper Conrad: 1:25:42

Oh, Jessica, I could keep talking. Let's go. We are trying to round up.

Cecilie Conrad: 1:25:47

I'll be back, yes, yes, first of all.

Jesper Conrad: 1:25:51

Uh, thank you for changing my view on the danish parenting, because part of me hadn't seen it like it. Sometimes it takes an outsider to look at it and see the, the, the tree fall the, or the forest fall the trees, or whatever I'm trying to say I know what you mean. We've talked enough by now, yeah no, but your perspective have really sparked something in me that I I find very interesting and I look forward to I still have seven things on my list Waiting for those seven next time. Next time.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:26:31

Write it down.

Jesper Conrad: 1:26:32

Yeah. So, Jessica, quickly, for the people who don't read the show notes, please mention where people can find the name of your book, where they can find your homepage and also the digital citizenship, also the digital citizenship.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:26:53

Well, right now, my most important message out is the RaisingDigitalCitizenscom, because that's really our main, what we're really devoted to right now. My book is the Danish Way of Parenting, which you can find everywhere. You can go to TheDanishWaycom or Jessica Joelle Alexander and I'm on Instagram Jessica Joelle Alexander and I'm on Instagram, jessica Joelle Alexander, and, as always, like I said, raising digital citizens conversation cards. I really urge people to to get that, that connection with their kids, and don't say no, say no.

Jesper Conrad: 1:27:24

That's a wonderful place to stop. Thanks a lot for your time.

Jessica Joelle Alexander: 1:27:28

It was a thanks guys, this was really nice.