104: Dola Dasgupta | Unschooling in India: Embracing Choice and Navigating Challenges

So today we are together with Dola Dasgupta. First of all, welcome. It's wonderful to see you.

Thank you, Jesper and Cecilia.

So Dola Cecilia and I were in India around 17 years ago and we would love to visit India again and it would be most lovely if we could find some Indian homeschoolers or unschoolers. Most lovely if we could find some Indian homeschoolers or unschoolers because we know that we often have a lot more in common than just the educational choice. So I searched online and I found you and I can see you have been part of the movement in India for many, many years.

So I think I'll start with India and then, you know like, go from the macro to the micro. So India, it's vast, it's huge. Diversities are, in many aspects, right, it's class diversity, there's caste diversity, there's religious diversity, ethnic diversities, so, and also aspirational diversities. Right, that's the main thing. Everybody aspires for different things in India, and one of the things that everyone has a common aspiration for is class mobility. Everybody wants to rise up in the social stratification.

Right, they want to be better than where they are today, and modern education is something that gives that hope to a large number of people that, with modern education and getting those, getting through school certificates and then a university degree and a professional qualification is what will improve their status in society, which otherwise might be very hard for various reasons, because socially we are a very nuanced country where people have all kinds of limitations due to various social reasons, and one of them also is gender. So obviously, education seems like the only ticket to some kind of betterment of their life. So, therefore, you won't find a lot of people thinking about homeschooling. Thinking about homeschooling, because that is not easy at all for a large diversity of people who are looking at school and then college and then a university as their pathway to a certain better life. So that's one of the reasons why homeschooling is not as popular, and also we. If you look at the population of this country, it's like huge right, uh, compared to any small european country like some of our oh yes we're talking to.

I mean, we are probably we're not the smallest, but we are from a very small country.

So for us it's like Denmark is six million.

It's the rest of the world, more or less yeah.

So some of our states I can say federal states just to make people understand Some of our states are larger than any European country, right? So it's like each state is a country in itself. It's huge, so you can imagine the numbers and the different kinds of people and what they want out of life. So therefore, bumping into a homeschooler or an unschooler is a remote probability. You really need to be a homeschooler yourself to kind of find those people. It's like little like needle in a haystack, you know. So that's one of the reasons, like if a homeschooler from abroad comes and hopes that we're just going to bump into a lot of people who think differently about education, that's not going to happen. You need to know me or someone like me from before so that I can then connect you to all others who are there. You know we are like elves and fairies hiding in forests, so we're not really walking down the streets.

How is the legality Dola? How legal is homeschooling? Is it legal in all states?

We have a very ambiguous status when it comes to homeschooling. In India, there is no rule against it. It's not illegal by law. In fact, home education has been included in the new education policy, which is called the new education policy 2020. Right, so you can home ed your children. However, most students will need to take a school certificate, like in the 10th grade or the 12th grade, because if you want to join college, you need those, Right. But if you don't want to join college, you want to keep on being a self-learner all your life and you want to become an entrepreneur? You want to start your own business? You want to do something by yourself which doesn't need any college endorsements? Then you're free to do whatever you want to. There's no one's going to come and tell you hey, you didn't go to school, though you don't have the right to live or something like that. There's nothing like that. So it's entirely really upon the family and the children what they want to do about it.

We do have something called the Right to Education Act, which is basically a fundamental right which every child below the age of 14 has, which means if you're a child till the age of 14, you can demand education and proper schools and proper policies from the government. So it's a right which is bestowed upon the citizens. It's not a duty or a responsibility that has to be fulfilled by the citizens to kind of, you know, fall in line with some laws or anything like that. So if I feel that my child is being not given admission in a school or is being discriminated against or there is no school in my district or in my village, I can make use of Right to Education Act to make sure that the government or the administration make sure that there's a school and children can go to school and you know that education is being provided. So it's an onus which is on the government, not on the people right. So obviously we have a right but, yeah, it's great.

It sounds really great. I'm just curious do they also have the right to not educate? I mean, if they wanted to? Because this is a lot of freedom in many ways. You're explaining and it sounds a little bit like our country that we don't live in any longer, but where you also. But it's mandatory to be educated in our country, so you can do it at home if you want to, you can unschool if you want to, but you have to have an educational strategy for everyone under the age of about 15 15 there is no such.

There is no such law here in india.

Yet our children are 13, 16, 19 and 25. We first, with the second child, started the whole homeschooling in our life and he's now 19. When we started homeschooling it was lonely. There was, it was not. People didn't know about it. How has your journey been? You started many years ago also, so have it been lonely and have it grown now.

Yeah, so when I started she was, I think, six years old and she'd just been to a kindergarten not to any, just been to a kindergarten, not to any. So kindergarten again is compulsory here. It's up to parents if they want to send them to a kindergarten. So it was completely our choice to send her or not, but we thought it would be nice at that point. So she used to go to a kindergarten, but after that we stopped and since then we have not looked back on school at all.

And then and my son at that point was three and a half, I think, and now a daughter is 23 and son is just about turning 19 in March this year we did meet, I think two or three families at that time and I don't know. It was just like law of attraction or something like that. We kind of thought about it and expressed a desire about it and there I found articles in mainstream magazines and newspapers which were featuring some of these families who were already doing it and we literally like called up so my father of my children we are not married anymore, so he was, he and I, we were both journalists and we we kind of dialed a few numbers because we knew people in the press and got the numbers of these families which were featured, and then we kind of literally called them up and went and met them and most homeschoolers, you would know, are very friendly and they love having people over to talk about their journeys, and so I didn't really feel so alone because I very quickly found a lot of people and I also, thanks to the internet, I also was able to connect with quite a few people abroad, especially the US, so kind of very quickly plugged into certain social media. I think we didn't have social media in that sense. We had what you call the e-groups, email groups, right, yeah. Yahoo, yeah, right. So I quickly joined those. So it was not so alone for me. But I also had a lot of family friends who didn't homeschool, but they kind of were okay with what we were doing. So it didn't really feel that lonely, yeah, so yeah, but it has grown, I would say. When I started we kind of knew the people by names and faces, we were very close-knit and but now there's a whole lot of people who are doing I don't know them all. Personally, though, I'm on a lot of groups. People keep inviting me to join their groups, because now it's all WhatsApp and stuff like that. So now it's grown exponentially. But I think that's also because of COVID.

I think the difference, I would say, between some of us who kind of started early in 2008, 9, or even before that, some of them, some started even before that. For us it was more of a philosophical question really, like we really were looking at education from a more holistic, a more expansive, from an expansive point of view. But I think with COVID it's become. The intentions or the motivations to homeschool are certainly different. It's more like a lot of people figured that school is not needed to educate your children. So many of them saw that their children were doing better when they were not going to school regularly and the family had more time with each other, and also financially it was because so we. So that's another thing.

I need to tell you that in India we have we have the private schools which you have to pay, and then you have the government schools which are free, you don't have to pay for them. But sadly a lot of the government schools are not that great. So parents don't like sending their children to government schools. They prefer the private schools, and private schools are very expensive now especially. They weren't so bad when I was a kid, but now it's really expensive. So I think people lost their jobs during COVID and they realized that they felt that school was a huge expense. So that's one of the reasons. Also, people came to homeschooling. So yeah, so I would say the motivations might be a little different from maybe maybe like 20-25 years back to now.

Yeah, we have the same thing going on in Europe. A lot of we call it the COVID converters. I don't think it's mostly because of expensive private schools. I think it's many different things that made people realize when they had the kids home during COVID that why don't we just keep doing this? But the difference between the COVID converters and the people who were homeschooling before is that the COVID converters often only differ on that aspect, so that's the only thing they do, different from everyone else, and I really hope that I will stop saying COVID converters, that you know it will expand, that having kids at home might make you just make your own choices and and we could be like a more I don't know if I can say this word in English- a mockiness.

I can't say it Group with one feel of being, but it is really profound how different it can feel with the people who have homeschooled, and it's not just about homeschooling for a long time, it's. It's the mindset, as you said. Are you doing this for philosophical reasons? Are you used to asking, just questioning, why am I doing this? I remember you had a colleague once my husband had a colleague once who said don't you get tired? You must think so much because there's so many things you've thought about.

We question as a base, we question everything.

Do you think it will unravel from there?

Well, so what I'm noticing is that a lot of them did come into homeschooling because of the reasons that you and I just talked about, do start thinking differently a little bit, because they kind of realize that it's so hard to kind of engage, keep children engaged all the time at home, and they find themselves at wit's ends, not knowing how to be with their children, and so it's it's kind of a limitation that they're hitting, and even though they try to kind of pack the days of the children with classes and tutorials and online and stuff, children are rebelling because that's not what they want. So children also kind of start rebelling. So children also kind of start rebelling. They start behaving differently because to the children, that kind of a homeschooling feels like a prison. It's better to be in school than to be in that kind of an environment, right? So?

So it's not like all of them are kind of doing school at home and just looking at another alternative which would be like school, but they are also thinking and I think that could be one of the reasons that I find myself just not me, but many of us who started many years ago find ourselves on these various groups. We get invited because they want to know what we really think, what we really feel, which means that people do want to know is there another way? So some of them have moved to homeschooling post COVID because of non-philosophical reasons, but I think a bunch of them within that also kind of start having a change of heart, change of mind, and then they start asking deeper questions. Yeah, but I can't say for sure, because it's just been a few years right and don't know. Many of them do go back to school because they just can't handle it and they put their hands up and they say, okay, this is just not our cup of tea.

No, but it's also a difficult path to walk where you, if you do school at home, then you have a risk of ruining your relationship with your child because now you become the enforcer of. You need to learn this at this time time where, if you believe in foreschooling, as some people do, then I would rather it I had hired someone to be the, the evil person, and I think this is of course I'm. I'm putting it like yeah. So I think that it's important to look at and say do I want this role as a parent towards my children? How can I best be a partner in their learning instead of a top-down uh, taking over the, the teacher's role of deciding what happens when?

yeah um, yeah, you, you have written an article many, many years ago, uh, about how to explain unschooling um to critics skeptics, skeptics, oh yeah, yeah it's many years ago but I like the title of it can. Can we touch upon that?

no, that that was for Wendy, right. Yeah, for her magazine. Yes, yeah, yeah, sure, yes, we can. What do you want to ask me? How do you explain?

unschooling to people who are skeptic.

I think I've moved so much from when I wrote that article. I think I've moved so much from when I wrote that article. A lot of me now doesn't really feel like explaining things to skeptics anymore.

That's actually my take as well, this comes with the years.

These days, I'm like do you really want to know? When people ask, what are you doing? What does that mean? I'm like do you have the time? Do you really want to know? When people ask, what are you doing, what does that mean? I'm like do you really want to know? Because? It will take about three and a half hours and we could talk about where you're going on vacation next time or your brother's wedding, because maybe this is not for you. Yeah, I do the same. I have a podcast that people can listen in.

I think I've changed a lot as a person as well. Unschooling has changed me so much, and I'm growing older, so I think my perspectives on life are also very different now, and I think I also realize that I don't really have to explain anything to anybody. So I've also kind of over the years that, however, when somebody who's really interested like a lot of homeschoolers, especially when they're struggling with being this evil, authoritarian teacher for their children see that their relationship with their children is going down, going you know, south, then they want to know is there another way? Because that's obviously not working for them. So that's when I think I try to step in a bit with our life and how it has been for us and how there can be another way to be with your children. So I think that's the only place now where I do talk about unschooling, because that's when I see there is a real intention to know they're looking for something, they're struggling with something and they're looking for a more compassionate, loving path. Then I do talk about it with them.

We all have our own perspectives and we all have our own journeys. I'm no missionary, I don't have to. I mean, the whole world will never agree with what I'm doing and I don't have to convince anyone, but I will. I will help if someone's asking for my help and I will share my perspective and what I've learned. And also it's funny, and also it's funny. I think I was more oh, that sounds weird. I was going to say I think I was more convinced, maybe three or four years ago than I am now, that unschooling is the right thing. I'm more like now. It's right for us. This is what we're doing, this is our life, our choice, our style. I've been consistently we have been consistently asking the kids over all the years if there's anything they want to modify about our lifestyle, and they usually just say, if we could have a little more cake, that would be nice, but besides that they're happy. So I mean it's just our thing. But do I have to do I have to convince everyone? No, no, no, no.

I mean isn't it the job of this life and your way yeah, yeah, I, I quite agree with you.

In fact, I've always been like that, from the very beginning. Maybe you know a lot of my other community members. There is a need for advocacy and showing this as the better path, or being anti-school, actively being anti-school, whereas I never took that path because, like I said right at the beginning, I love my country and I see the struggles and challenges of the people and I, while philosophically I might and spiritually I might see, you know there is another way to kind of, you know there is another way to kind of accept life as it is and end of suffering, as Buddha says. But I don't think I should be expecting everyone to be on that path, because to respect whatever desires and aspirations each and everyone has for themselves and for their children is another thing that I've also kind of tried to constantly remind myself of. So I've never been anti-school, I've never advocated for unschooling or homeschooling. It's just what worked for us. It's something that was my life journey. Sometimes I even wonder at this point of my life and I'm like 50 plus and the children are adults and I'm like, okay, maybe it was just about me, it's not even about the children. So it's like, uh, I, I mean, I, I came to this planet for some reason and this is the reason and I did this, and I did it against some odds and I had a great time. I'm still having a great time and I'm sure I think even if the children went to school, they would have turned out fine either way. So, but it's not really about whether they, what would have happened if they went to school, or is it fine that they didn't. I think it's more about.

This is what felt really great for me to do and I did it, and over the years, the children have been quite happy about it, and I've also, just like you both, always ask them that what do you think? Like, uh, they have friends who go to school and stuff. So I said do you think it's more fun? Would you like to experiment, explore? And they always said no, because, uh, what they tell me is that their friends always kind of came up to them and said you guys are so lucky y'all don't go to school. So, yeah, so I think they didn't really miss out on that. You know that social life which can happen for some kids who go to school. They've always had some other kids who go to school. So they did some of those social activities always. They still do so.

Ultimately, my children and I, we all realize that it's not really about going to school and sitting there and spending a lot of time in a physical space called school, but it's more about the interactions that you can have with some diverse people. So that's that's what they ultimately started looking for, uh, and it was not really. They also realized they wouldn't find it in school, because school can be pretty, uh, homogeneous in that sense. Uh, so, yeah, so I think, uh, I would say at this point of my life I don't know, meet me 10 years later. I might say something else, but now I really feel that this is something that called me and I did it.

And it's a wonderful perspective and it made me think about all the joy I personally have gotten out of that we chose this path. I think the fact that we have had our children at home and I also, seven years ago, started working from home have given me such a much more rich life. It has given me double the amount of time with my children and all the quality hours with my children. So, besides my children being happy and liking to be homeschooled and unschooled and the life they are living, I'm just personally so grateful for seeing so much of my, so much of the time my children live and being there when they grow up and then I've also. It has given me a perspective when I look back at how I have learned through my life.

I like the philosophy about unschooling and doing what we are doing as parents have given me so much time for reflection about what it is that makes me tick or where my passions lie. And I have come to to a um, a pad. I just turned 50 where I'm like I really love learning, but I I hate learning from people. I still hate that. I love getting an idea, making a project, trying to figure that out.

This year I will start a publishing house again. I've done it earlier, but now I want to. There's some new stuff I want to learn. Making the podcast is, for me, a way to learn, a way to meet great people, as a way to grow, and this about finding how you, as a person, learn best. I don't think I would have gotten that if we hadn't chosen to to homeschool and unschool, so I'm I'm very grateful that Cecilia brought it into our life, or actually it was our son, who is now 19. He said I don't think this school thing is for me, and he said it enough, so we had to listen to him.

Yes.

And it has given me such a deep and rich life that I'm just it's pretty good.

Can I do another rant? I'm not advocating against school, I am checking in with the children. But I'm also pretty convinced that unschooling is the best way to grow up. Pretty convinced that unschooling is the best way to grow up, that if you, if you're lucky enough to have caregivers, who who can find them there in themselves to do the de-schooling process, or maybe you even have parents who were never in school, and you get that framework of of growing up with that freedom, with that kind of relationship with your most important people and with that kind of support just no pushing, no curriculum, but still a framework of of other people around you who will provide and help you with whatever.

Whatever you feel like, is it Minecraft or pottery, or drawing, or French philosophy, whatever, I'll support you, I'll find the things you need, I'll, I'll prompt you, not like, but just you know, are you sure you're doing what you want to do and can I help you? Do you want a cup of tea? Can I join you? All these things that we do. I am convinced this is the better life and I'm convinced that it would be the better life for everyone, and I am convinced that the centerpiece is things being voluntary. I think it's good for parents to de-school and find out who they really are and and take away all the stress of being the policeman of the school system, and I'm convinced that voluntary education based on curiosity and exploration is better for everyone if, if the framework is right, because of course there is a lot of diversity, a lot of situations where this is not true. I'm just saying I'm not, I'm I'm just afraid that I said before whatever, because I actually don't believe that. I do believe that this is the better life and it is more fair.

Yeah, it is more. There is more joy, there is more love and there is also more learning, actually. So I.

I just want to chime in with both of you because I totally agree with both of you and my experience is just the same as both of you. It's only. It's just this whole thing. That's why I said maybe I did it for me, I don't know, because it just completely changed my life. Uh, I'm.

I'm so grateful for it and, uh, the amount of time that I got with my children. Uh, I think a lot of time people ask me why did you unschool? And then I because I don't want to get into a long explanation I said I just say, oh, because I love them so much. I didn't you know? Uh, that's, that's so. I just kind of say that. But yes, I agree with Cecilia. This is, this is definitely even for me I might not say it loud out there to advocate anti-school or whatever, but I really feel this is the best way to live and I don't know why everyone's not doing it. So I always say why are you all not doing this? Everyone's not doing it. So I always say why are you all not doing this? This is like why are you worried about curriculum and schedules and routines and all that? Just just relax, have fun, enjoy and everything's going to be fine. And I do wonder why everyone's not living like this. And I feel everyone, the whole world, should be living like this.

And I think I want to touch upon your. Did I do it for me? Yes, I did it for me, but I also, I think, because the way I am a human on this planet, that I am in this life, I get some challenges or tasks or things. You know, there are some cards on my hand, things I have to. Maybe I don't have to do, but I have to think about how to handle it. And and four of these cards are my four children and and those are pretty good cards, they're pretty important cards, yeah, so I think a little more about them than I do about, you know, the roadside tree that I'm passing on my daily walk.

I could do something about that, but the kids are more important, yeah, and I think, stepping into being a mom in the way that makes sense to me, which is I take care of them, I will share the load, but it's they are my children. Why am I giving them up to strangers? Why am I trusting the school system's curriculum? Who made that up what? Why are they learning this? Why are they being pushed? Why are they sitting at a desk? Why am I just eating that weird packed lunch that the school system is? That I didn't want. It's not even vegetarian, you know. I just so the fact that I step into doing it the way that I want to do it, that makes sense to me and make therefore makes me happy.

Well, that was unschooling. That was giving them their freedom. So, yes, I did it for them because, yeah, it's just such an entangled thing I mean I can't do as a mom, I can't do things solely for me. I've heard that so many times. Why don't you go on a yoga retreat in France, all by yourself, to to treat yourself? If I have vacant time, I want to be with my kids and and if I want an important decision, I want to do it for them. But that makes it for me as well. My most important job is being a mom, so did I do it for me?

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but in a different way. That you explain. And that's great, because I also kind of hear this a lot, that you need a break, take a holiday, go somewhere. And I'm like, I think my life is a break, it's a vacation and I need to take a break from this. And yes, people do kind of feel that how do you all spend so much time with each other? And I'm like, uh, I just love it. I don't know why you are doing it. Uh, I, I wouldn't do it any other way. I'd never do it any other way, that's for sure. Yeah, dola.

if some of the ones who are listening to this lives in India and is considering, okay, homeschooling, home-led unschooling, could be an interesting path for us, we would like to explore it more. What would you suggest they do? How would you suggest to beginners that they take the first step?

One of the questions I often ask parents who kind of seek me out for this reason like 20 reasons which can be there for choosing something other than school and when they start coming up with one after another of those reasons, then we say, ok, now, how are you going to go about this? Say, okay, now, how are you going to go about this? So if your reason is you, your reason is I want my child to have more freedom, then I kind of take them through. What do you mean by freedom? What does freedom look like? Can you just kind of close your eyes and visualize freedom? What does it look like? So I start with I think these the reasons come from your heart. There's something that is calling you right and I think you might not be very clear about that calling unless someone helps you and guides you towards it. See, some of us, I feel, might have been a bit clearer than some, might have been a bit clearer than some, and I think that's also something that I've noticed that many of us took to unschooling like fish to water. It was like we were born to do this. But some, I think they feel attracted to it, but they don't really. They know there's a calling, but they're not able to really hold on to that and that helps. So these kind of reflective questions help them to kind of take that next step. The first step is leave school, then slowly, you know, start questioning, asking freedom. I want my child to pursue their interests. We want more bonding time, okay, so what are you going to do about it? Like, so, really get into that nitty gritty of it. So that's the philosophical part of it, I think, but there's a practical part to it as well.

One is that definitely, if you're going to be either homeschooling or even, the more radically, unschoolers, I do feel that one parent at least needs to be around. So that's another thing that parents need to think about. Like, are we going to, you know how? Are we going to homes, homeschool? Are we going to let go of our careers in the way that it is and rethink and reimagine even the way we look at livelihood and careers and professions? Because that's a big change, right, it's a big change, and especially in a country, like I told you, in India, where many people are first generation professionals, first generation educated. So for them to suddenly want to give up, suddenly to give up all that like profession, career jobs, well-paying jobs. To homeschool is a bit difficult, especially for the women, because, uh, women have to really work hard here too, and I mean it's in degrees. Gender biases are there everywhere, but it's a lot more in countries like us where women are really breaking barriers to kind of find professions, careers and jobs.

So then it's hard for women to actually really think of homeschooling because it means a lot of giving up. So that's the next change that they need to make, and are they ready for it? But if they're ready for all this, then the next step is uh, okay, now do we homeschool with the curriculum? Uh, with, uh with an objective of taking some school leaving, certificates and exams? Or we are eclectics, or, and we think about school exams and stuff like that later in life, or we remain unschoolers and figure out as so. The first question everybody asks is what about exams? What about certificates? So these are the questions people ask.

I think over the years many of them relax also, but when they are starting out, these are the fears they have. So I always give them all options, I tell them there are options for everything and you can do it this way, that way, another way, try it out and see what works for you as a family, and if it doesn't, you can always change tracks. That's fine. I think a lot of people after one or two years down the line kind of feel a bit of relief and there is a certain letting go of the burden that we have to figure out everything right now. They realize they don't have to. They realize, oh right, we have to figure out everything right now. They realize they don't have to. They realize, oh right, we have choices. Oh okay, it doesn't have to be right now, we can think about it five years down the line, 10 years down the line, it's fine, we can change tracks. I think when they figure that out, there's a lot more comfort and relaxation into this path.

Yeah, I usually tell people to take a year vacation. Just give it a year. A year is not that bad. How much can you fall behind in school stuff in a year you can catch up. Just take a break because there's so much going on in the mind and they think they, as you say, have to figure everything out within the first two weeks. We talked with a guy I know yesterday who was. He said now we're relaxing. The child has been out of school for two months no, you're not, it'll come give it a year christmas dola, thank you so much for your time.

It's been wonderful talking with you, so what? What are you helping people with and how can they get hold of you?

okay, so the best way to do is drop me an email and then we kind of figure out whether we can have a zoom session or some people prefer writing emails. I do run a facebook page and I'm admin of so many social media groups and stuff and I'm always out there typing in responses, helping people, trying to share ideas and resources and everything. But at the end, if they want a face to face, then I of course do set up a Zoom with them. It was so nice to talk to you.

I actually think we should make a video again. If they want a face-to-face, then I of course do set up a Zoom with them. It was so nice to talk to you.

I actually think we should make a video again.

Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. Maybe we can talk about more things.

Yeah, I think we can. Let's find time for a second episode. Thanks a lot for your time. It has been a big pleasure.

It was a nice conversation.

Thank you, it was lovely meeting you both.