#87 Erin Loechner | Opting Out of Technology

AUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPT

00:00 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Today we have the joy of welcoming Erin Lochner and welcome. It's super good to see you. 

00:07 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat. 

00:10 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, so, erin, for our podcast. I look for people where I'm like, oh, that could be a fun talk and you have written two books One is called Chasing Slow and the other is the Opt-Out family and I was like opt-out family oh, that sounds interesting, let's get her on board. So maybe could you share a little about your story and how you ended up opting out of course. 

00:39 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Yeah, I love that. That's how you choose your guests. That's so fun. This sounds interesting. Let's just talk about it. 

00:45
Yeah, I would say a lot of my story was really formed through the first. The first book was Chasing Slow. That was kind of opting out of the American dream, right, opting out of the rat race and everything that you think that you need to do to be a successful American or citizen and all of that, everything that you think that you need to do to be a successful American or citizen and all of that. And then, as you guys probably already know, there are so many layers you know, after you kind of make that big leap to, I'm not going to have anyone determine what a life well lived means for me. I want to seek that out as a family unit, what you know, what we, what we value and what we hold dear and hold true. 

01:27
And so, after sort of moving into this space with with schooling, I mean, we just found ourselves just kind of reassessing everything and putting everything on the table and technology is what was left. And we recognized, oh gosh, this one kind of crept up on us Technology, kind of crept up into this area of which we are now being determined. Our behaviors, our choices, our information are all being formed by this unnamed algorithm. And are we okay with that? Do we want to participate in that as a family? And so, to give you context, I was a social media influencer. That was my job. I had a million followers I had. I had lived this out not necessarily on purpose, but that's where I found myself, you know, at relying on our sole income was just through this job. And so for me to reassess that, you know, kind of one of my missions is just, hey, if I can do it, anybody can do it. You know, this was my job, and I can leave social media, and I can leave technology's main influences, and it is possible. 

02:38
So from that, our family motto became be more engaging than the algorithm. Because we just realized, as we raise our kids, who are now 12, eight and four, it's not really enough to just say no to devices. You know, we're not, we're not sort of going to lord over them and say never touch these terrible things. It's more, I believe, effective to introduce them to what's on the other side. What's better than technology, what's better than this? You know, faux connection. So that's our goal as a family, you know so the Opt Out Family. The subtitle is how to Give Kids what Technology Can't, and the reason for that is it's not enough to say no to devices, we have to say yes to something better. 

03:20 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
On the other side, One day, many, many years ago, I came home from work to Cecilia and the kids who have taken back then had taken a very bold decisions about what was it? One day where you would turn off all the devices and it ended up becoming four years, which was quite a ride, because in our story it kind of suddenly the iPad came and it was really nice with an iPad. But I also remember seeing myself, instead of engaging the kids in helping to make dinner, then just passing them the iPad. And then Netflix was there and then, instead of some curated small animation film, I was like, oh, this is good quality content, I like my kids to see this. I enjoyed it when I was young. Then, all of a sudden, it was series after series, without us realizing, as you say, it kept creeping in. Now we have opened our life to it again and I find it's a balance, all the time figuring out how much is good, how much is too much it is, and you're right it's. 

04:45 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
It's of those it sort of does creep in. And so you know the idea as an opt-out family it's not to just shut the door to all of it, stay blind to all of it. And yet we do have to recognize we have the agency to at any time, like you said, just turn off all the devices and four years later find yourself not turning them back on. And I interviewed a lot of Silicon Valley experts for this book because really, truly, my premise was I was kind of tired of the conversation that was it's all a balance, everything in moderation, because for us, what we've noticed is, truly, we don't want to tango with this until we don't have to anymore. So for me that looked like cutting all ties with social media. 

05:31
I don't have a smartphone, a lot of me making these bold choices, really more so that my kids can kind of grow up in an environment where, when they choose to purchase their first device, whatever it is, whether it's smartphone, dumb phone, track phone, flip phone I don't want the reason to be that they don't purchase that device to be because they don't know another way. 

05:58
I don't want technology to be so infiltrated in our home with, like you said, autoplay and the stopping and starting cues not being there anymore. I don't want that to be kind of the drumbeat of our home and of their life so much that they think anything else is silence. I don't want that. So so that's why I kind of just jumped off the deep end to figure that out and I wanted to know is this a sustainable way to live? And it is the deep end to figure that out and I wanted to know is this a sustainable way to live? And it is, and I recognize not everyone can just throw it all out the window, but it is possible if you want to, it really is. It's doable with just a flip phone, a desktop computer, an email address and call it a day. 

06:39 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
So we did it, as Jesper said, for quite a long time. So we did it, as Jesper said, for quite a long time. Oh, I have so many things in my mind. They're getting in the way of each other right now. I know about all the problems and some of them I do experience in our own family but the opting out for us and some of them I do experience in our own family, but the opting out for us as they grew older became not a walkable path. 

07:17
It wasn't the optimal path, but we had four years with no devices at all. I had a smartphone. I would use it for texting and calling and looking things up on Wikipedia sometimes, but I'm not very much. I don't get absorbed by these things. Actually, I don't know where my phone is half of the time. Phone is half of the time. 

07:50
Um, and then we had, I think, maybe two, three years where the only thing we did was that we would watch a movie as a family. So it wasn't. There was no fate, no social media, no gaming, no, no youtube, all these things. We would just watch a movie every second week. So I mean, it was a long time. We didn't really do those things and I totally agree it's a livable life, it's a good life and in many ways in the beginning it was a way better life. But then the kids grow older, and now our kids are 25, 18, 15, and 12. And it became too strange in a way. It became and they really felt that they were missing out that some of their friends were doing things that they were not allowed to participate in. We would visit friends, those friends would be gaming, and then would they have to leave the room. Would we have to ask our friends to not game when we were around? Was that controlling other people's behavior? There were so many things that became strange that we changed it, yeah. 

08:58 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
How was that experience for you? 

09:01 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Changing it. 

09:03 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It's still an experience it's still an experience. 

09:07 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
There's a little the pendulum and and the problem is also that the technology changes and they are really so that came the algorithms yeah, they're really, really good. For example, youtube was and is fantastic to look at small documents. How are you doing that? People training with their dogs. But then came the YouTube shows. And the autoplay and the autoplay and the algorithms. I know I delete YouTube once or twice a week. I don't know how it reappears on my phone. When I'm tired. 

09:45 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I'm like, oh, maybe I should just watch it put like a parental control on your phone yeah, I think I could eat that I have to allow you to download things yes, that would help me do that yeah but I in. 

09:57 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Sometimes I fall in and end on the youtube shows and it is searching for this kick of something that entertains you and bring you a dopamine high, and it's not healthy. But sometimes I just my excuse is I'm too tired to read in the evening or some other lame excuse, and then I get too little sleep and then the day after I'm too tired again. 

10:19 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
It is uh, it's really uh, but I think so, if I can talk about other experiences than you or you. 

10:27
I think the most interesting part is the children, and we have four of them. One is an adult, so it's not. I mean, she does her own thing and she's very much not a phone person. She's an artist. The three ones that live with us, the boys, like to game. That's the 18 year old and the 12 year old. Our daughter, 15, is not interested at all. 

10:53
I think the gaming is the most problematic part because it has um, it feeds itself and it very easily absorbs a lot of hours and also there will be a lot of processing of emotion after you turn it off. But it's also been amazing. The boys have been playing great adventure games together. They've been exploring different kinds of games together and on their own and on with their friends online. We travel full-time and have done so for six years, and it's really nice, if you make a friend in Mexico, to be able to say, oh, we'll just meet in the game next week and play Minecraft and talk it's, it's. It has become a point of connection and I will say 80% of it is really great and they get to unfold good stuff. And then there's the 20%. That's problematic and I want to say that mostly that feeds really important conversations. 

12:03
Our oldest he's good, I mean there's no, he's old, he's wise in his soul. He's always been like that. He makes good decisions and you would expect so from an 18 year old. I would expect so. The other one is 12. That's a crazy time in life so it's different with him. But the problems we face around the gaming if we just have the space for it and take the time for it, it becomes good conversations about what's important and when is what possible and how to prioritize and what different engagement does to you, and especially this problem that gaming it fuels itself. You always want to do more, whereas you know working out, you get tired Playing the guitar at some point you just don't want to rehearse it anymore. You get bored or many other things. They have their own cycle of life that the games simply don't want to rehearse it anymore, get bored, or many other things. They have their own cycle of life that the game simply don't have. None of them are on social media, so we don't have a social media problem at all. They do WhatsApp texts with their friends, but it's in a healthy way, so we don't have. 

13:24
Does Be Real count as a social media? Maybe not, really does it, I don't know what. Do count as a social media? No, really does it, I don't know. What do you think You're the expert? Let's be real. Count as a social media. 

13:35 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
I love that they're not on social media. I don't think social media is a good space for many adults, let alone children, and that's from firsthand experience, secondhand experience, secondhand experience, thirdhand experience. But many, many, many interviews just the idea that the algorithms goals are not aligned with our goals as a family is probably. I don't like to participate in things in which I can't sort of tether my wagon to their, their finish line. You know what I mean. So I'm just out from the beginning if that's the case. But I love that. It sounds like you've you've made this really intentional decision and you recognize that for your unique family. You know you, you do travel and you do want that point of contact and you do. It sounds like you really value that. Your experience, you know, and your parenting choices not infiltrate on other people's experience. You know, like you had mentioned, you know if the other people are gaming, you don't want to go to their house and ask them to turn off the gaming. I completely. I think that's a really big point of tension for a lot of parents right now and so I love that. I've. I've always said you know, I don't think there's a wrong answer except to not question it at all, and it sounds like you've really landed on a spot where, yeah, the gaming, I'm fine with that, you're fine with the gaming and you've seen some healthy interactions, and isn't that everything? Isn't everything about 80% good? And then there's the 20% learning, you know, and the 20%. So I would just say, you know, just encouraging you to keep having those conversations, I would encourage you to, with the 12 year old, specifically talk about the idea of a space that can feel safe because it's familiar but might not be. So just keep encouraging him to listen to his gut. You know, in the chat rooms and when things are being shared, and you know I think you said they're on Minecraft and so just the recognition that that's not a controlled space. You know it's not, but also very few things are in the world. So having those conversations I think are really helpful. 

15:49
But, yeah, you know, for us, our kids are at a wildly different age and we have so much more control over their space. You know, when they're young. And one thing that I noticed all of their kids all have all of their friends have phones and they have devices and personal devices. And we have just made, because we have a home base have made our home the low-tech hangout zone, and it's interesting to me that the kids that I talked to about this, the ones that I interviewed for the book and the ones that come over all the time, have said you know, my parents assume that I'm on these devices because I'm addicted, and I'm not. It's just that there's not an alternative available to me. You know, my friends aren't here all the time. I don't have. You know, we're having bonfires in our backyard or, uh, water balloon fights or you know, whatever, it's the neighborhood hangout zone, and so of course they want to come here. They want to. We're having bonfires in our backyard or water balloon fights or whatever. It's the neighborhood hangout zone, and so of course they want to come here. They want to be where their friends are. 

16:57
And I think a lot of the misconception between parents and kids is that the child is choosing this device because they're addicted and I think some are, some are. 

17:03
But also, if we proactively work to lay some of those foundational goals and choose the priority that matters to us, like, yes, the house is going to be messy all the time, yes, it means that we have to have a home base for a little longer. But can we build a community that cares about the same thing, that's advocating for all kids' safety in these areas and that's working together so that when they do purchase their device, their phone, they're going to see a different way? It's not about just saying technology is the future? Adapt, adapt, adapt. It's asking yourself is this the future that we actually want for our children, for our society, for our world? And that's to me, where I come in, it's hard to turn a blind eye to any of that. The fact that all of our kids aren't safe online is, I think, a tremendous issue for the world and so kind of starting that in a grassroots approach and in a small way, I think, is sort of what our family has chosen. 

18:06 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
To go a little back. I really loved your family motto be more engaging than the algorithm. Yeah, and I see some of the ways that Cecilia interact with the children there. She is creating and motivating the community in our family where, if it was up to me, then sometimes I would just sit and do my own thing and the kids wouldn't embroider together, draw together, play a board game, and it takes a parent that encourages it in the start because it's a skill you need to learn to. Hey, what should we do now, where the easy answer is should we play a game, watch a television series, watch a movie? How do you do these things in your family? Trying to be more engaging than the algorithm. 

19:06 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Yeah, and it takes so much practice. I'm someone that I love. I love to be more engaging than the algorithm. Yeah, and it takes so much practice. Um, I'm a, I'm someone that I love, I love to be alone, I love quiet, I love solitude, I love space, and so, uh, for me it has looked a lot like, um, kind of an inchworm method, I would say so. 

19:22
So we all come together for, you know, a read aloud or board games or family walks or hikes or whatever, and then everybody moves apart into their individual project time. So, you know, for my oldest that might be sewing clothes for her doll, or, you know, the middle that might just be soccer in the backyard or trampoline. The youngest is always doing something with clay and just taking things apart and putting it back together. So that, for me, has really protected that brain space. I think every parent has where they're like I just need a minute, I need some time, and so I never want the misconception to be that, to be more engaging than the algorithm, we have to have a family circus at all times. You know, we have to just have fun and fun and things all the all the time. That's overstimulating too, so we have sort of created that rhythm in our home where we all have some together time and we have some alone time and some apart time. 

20:27
But one of the things that I found really interesting when I kind of unpacked this algorithm what doesn't make it so sticky, what makes it a place we want to check out to? And, of course, we know about the starting cues, the stopping cues, the fact that it's always playing, there's always a party, there's always something happening. And what was interesting to me I was talking to some TikTok programmers and they have created that same environment where there is always a party. That's what a team would say. I love TikTok because I met instantly with things that I love and that I like, and so I thought how do I do that in my home? You know, how do I make our home a place where our children feel as if there's always something to discover? And I've thought back to early childhood development theories and strewing. Do you guys use strewing at all in your home? 

21:25 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
I don't know what strewing means, so maybe I do, but I don't know the word. Okay, Well. 

21:29 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
So it's, yeah, the idea it's. It's kind of an unschooling strategy as well, but the idea is just, you're going to, you're going to lay something out for your child to discover, recognizing that that intrinsic motivation is going to be more effective in the longterm with learning, if they're interested and they're delighted by this thing. And there is a concept where, if the child is discovering it themselves, they care more, they care more about it, they think that this was a choice that they've made to engage with this object or this item. And so it's very simple. You know, we just have a coffee table in our home and a lot of times I'll visit the library and I'll save some of those books back for a moment that I think that they could probably use a prompt, a learning prompt of any sort, and then there will be an object that reflects that child's interests and then they'll play with it, they'll engage with it. 

22:22
I like to observe, I like to kind of pay attention of what they're doing half an eye on what you're doing, half an eye on what they are, and then from that you're getting all kinds of information, just like TikTok. You're getting all these data points on what your child is engaging with and what is it about this thing or this, this activity or this opportunity that is making them come alive in some way? And then you just begin to build from that. So if it's, you know the story of Benji is it that they like the dogs? Is it like they like the drama? Is it? What part of Benji is it that they're interested in? And then you build from there. 

22:58
And so strewing is just. You can do it, it doesn't cost anybody, you can do it with any item in your home. I know a parent that laid out her high school yearbook. She got it from the attic, put it on the kitchen counter and just left it open for the kids to just look through, and they just had a wonderful afternoon making fun of their parents and their outfits and their clothes and everything that they did and enjoyed as kids. And that's strewing. It's just this idea that there's always something to discover, and we can do that as parents in our own home, in a way that is uniquely tailored to our kids so that they are excited and delighted by their familiarity. It's not just a comfort or a given, it's some discovery, it's a discovery engine, just as if it was on TikTok discovery. 

23:50 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
It's a discovery engine, just as if it was on tiktok yeah, I would say in. We are based part-time out of a van. As we are full-time travelers, then screwing is just looking around. There's no coffee table, but there's shakespeare on the on the shelf, I think. 

24:03 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
In a way, I think all intuitive parenting do that kind of thing. I mean the toys you bring home. Whether you bring it home from the toy shop or or the charity shop doesn't really matter. The things you bring into your home in a way is true way. And then the question is do you give it to the child and say here's what it is and here's how to play with it, or do you just leave it more casually hanging around? There's an l. I know the concept, I just didn't know the word. I I know about the strategy and I I think for me personally there's an element of manipulation in it that I don't like. Um, I'm just so my. I think maybe the most important value for me as a parent is that they can trust me, that we have trust, so I'm never, ever lying to my children, ever, and this is slightly manipulative that I take it home. I put it there because I think it will spark something specific. I'd rather just say that you know, say, say. 

25:09
I've been nudging our oldest son pretty hard the past week for many actually quite fun reasons, to embroider, because I know he really likes to work with a needle. It really makes him happy to create things. He's been sewing, repairing and he's liked that a lot, but we just haven't taken a lot of time for it the past few years. So I pushed him, but I push him very openly. I don't just let the project. I did buy the book and I did buy another book and I have the materials lying around but I also just talk to him and say I'm pretty sure it would make you happy to do this. 

25:47
Will you please flip through this book and see if there's a pattern or an idea that inspires you? I think I mean you don't have to finish the project. I think we should start one. Why don't we start one? So I'm way more nudgy and we are unschoolers, but that doesn't mean I don't get to have an opinion and that doesn't mean I don't get to. Maybe sometimes, sometimes I'm right when I think I know my children a little bit better than they do and that you know, just push them over some little obstacle. Maybe it's just making a decision, maybe you just need to get started. Maybe it's buying the materials and and. But I don't think I would take the books home and throw them around, leave them lying there without telling my kids. I got this book from the library because I think you would find this very interesting. Maybe, maybe you would here it is. But I would never say you have to read it by Friday. You know that's different. 

26:53 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Yeah, I mean, it's fun how everyone has their different strategies. I mean, for me I do. I don't want to impose any sort of outcome onto the experience. You know, I don't want them to feel pressure from me to explore this thing that I picked out for them, because now I'm, now I'm becoming part of that experience. When it's theirs, it's theirs alone. 

27:17
I'm just, I'm just offering it to them, almost as if, you know, if I make someone dinner, I'm not going to put it in front of them and say I made this roast just for you because I think you're really going to love it in front of them and say I made this roast just for you because I think you're really going to love it. I know you're really going to love it. Please just taste a little bit to me. It's just here's your dinner. You know, enjoy and I love you and have fun. You know, here's, here's the, here it is, and that doesn't require any words. 

27:40
But I think everybody, you know, has their different. They know their kids, but you know your kids and so you I don't. Yeah, I don't think there's anything manipulative about it. But I also don't see any problem with saying you know, I would love for you. I think you're going to like this thing and and I and let's go together. You know we do that. 

27:59
Going to the ballet. You know my son might not want to go to the ballet, but I think you're going to love it. And they're doing this composer that we just studied and do you want to come? And and and. If he doesn't want to actually I probably wouldn't even ask him do you want to come? I'd probably say we're doing this as a family, you know. So just hop in the car and you can wear whatever shoes you want, I don't care. So, yeah, I think there's. There's just many, many different ways to do what suits your child best, what suits your family best. And the main thing for me is recognizing that these are strategies that technology uses, that we can use better as parents in our own home. 

28:33 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
But I think, especially with the younger children. Actually, for me there's a cutoff age exactly at 12. And you and I have children on each side of that border. It's two different countries really. When they become 12, something happens around that age and with our younger children and that was also when we had the no technology phase of six slash four years. It was a good thing that the iPad wasn't an option, that the gaming wasn't an option and that Netflix wasn't an option. Social media is not that much of a problem with a four-year-old, because what I felt when I when we first started the stopping I mean, there's a story before stopping. 

29:25 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
A story of 30 thing. 

29:27 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
We became unschoolers and went from being just your average you know you have screen time kind of parent to you can have unlimited access, because we don't want to control you and we want to let you have your personal freedom. And that very, very quickly became too much. And then we had different strategies, but a lot of screen time, a lot of personal freedom for the kids. They could choose the ipad if they wanted to. A lot of the time and and the meltdown point where the the change had the change happened in one day and it was because we were going out for the night open zoo, which is once a year. The zoo of Copenhagen, where we lived at the time, is open at night. They have all these fires and you know, the night active animals come out and it's really nice and we spend a lot of time. We live right next to the zoo and we spend a lot of time in the zoo in daytime and this was like the yearly night option. I told the kids all day it's tonight and I told them an hour before we were leaving we're leaving. For some reason. You had to stay home anyway. I can't remember working, or so they could stay home and I just couldn't get through to them. I mean, I couldn't get beyond Minecraft. I couldn't, you know. Would you please look me in the eye. We're leaving in half an hour. If you want to come, you maybe want to get off and go to the bathroom and have a sandwich, and I just couldn't. And I got so annoyed that at the end I just left with my oldest, who must have been, I don't know 14 or something. She was older and we had a great time and we came back and then the two middle children. I think the little one must have been too young to actually really understand what was going on, but the two middle children got really angry with me that I had done this thing without them and that was my big meltdown. I'm not proud of how I behaved, but I pretty much had an explosion. I got really angry because I said there's no way I can ever compete with that. Insert all the swear words. You want computer and iPad. I just can't. I can juggle naked while I do backflips and serve you candy floss and you will not see me, because your iPad, your computer, is so much more interesting, and even the once a year night open zoo that I've been telling you about all day is not going to make you stop, because you're too absorbed and you don't want me to give you screen time. You're sick and tired of screen time and watch, and I understand that when you're absorbed in something you want to do it until you're done, but on the other hand, I just can't compete with this. This is too powerful. I'm pretty interesting, I can come up with a lot of good ideas and if I go on a night day trip, it's a fun day trip. 

32:28
We were on the bikes and the stars were out and there were fires and everything Anyways, and I said you know what? Now I'm going to call it we're doing one day no electronics, no electronics for 24 hours as from right now, because I was having my meltdown. So I basically scared them into it because I was so angry. But the next day, when we, when it was bedtime and we were reading stories in bed, they said the two middle children. They said this has been the greatest day. Why don't we do it again tomorrow? So the second day they said this is wonderful, how about we try a week? So we did a week and after a week they say said what about a month and when that month was done you didn't, I didn't, I didn't prompt it, I didn't. 

33:18
None of us talked about it was not a thing anymore for four years. But I think it's different when they are. I really think it is different when they are older, when they become teenagers, and when their friends play a specific game or they talk all about all the time about some anime. It's called something else. Some is it called anime, maybe it is the Japanese style cartoon things that can be pretty epic and all the friends talk about it, but they're not allowed to see it because they have no you know no option. They don't even own an iPad to look at. That was the changing point for us, and it happened on top of COVID, where we also couldn't. We were in Spain, we couldn't move at all, so we were very restricted and the kids were very frustrated and we we had to make a big change at that point yeah, well, and it sounds like you chose to make a big change. 

34:16 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Change at that point, and I think that that's a that's the heart of it. You know, if you choose and I will say thanks for sharing that story, because every parent listening is going to relate to that the fact that I can't be naked doing cartwheels and my child will not see me, because when you have a device in the room, you have a third parent in the room and that third parent is saying stay as long as you want. The iPad even has, if you do set screen time regulations, which some families do they have a nudge where a button that pops up before the screen time ends that says would you like a couple more minutes? And the child just has to hit yes, it's, it's prompting the child. We are, we are no longer. It's, it's changing all the time, but we are no longer up against you know, just the game itself. We're up against the game and then the platform that the game is being used through and existing in, and both of them are vying for your attention. So now it's like there's four parents in the room and I think every parent listening is saying yes, yes, and so I love that you offered your kids a foundation, so that that's what I'm getting at. I want every kid to be able to experience what it's like to not rely on screens for their source of entertainment. You were able to give your kids that. 

35:40
So now, when they do enter those years, they can decide what do I want for my future? What do I want? I know what this is like. I know what this is like. I've I've been given, you know, options. I'm looking around, I'm observing my community. What do I choose for myself? Well, you know where do I want to go with this, and I'm a big believer in mixed age play. 

36:04
For this reason, because I hear from a lot of parents when just wait till they get older, just wait till they get older, and we are waiting. And yet we're also proactively building this net, along with us, of other parents with kids coming right behind us, coming up the ranks, that are saying there will not be any, will not be any. There will not be any thing that I will sway on in terms of me providing my child with a smartphone. I will not be buying my kid a smartphone for any reason. There are there's too much research. There are too many great alternatives. We can have a flip phone and a $20 bill and an Atlas in the dry in the car. They, they will be fine. 

36:46
I need to trust them and so having those conversations when they're young and being able to sort of walk together through that, so that the only so that the reason is not just that everybody's doing anime I want to do anime, that's what's important to me. 

37:03
I want to make anime, that's what's important to me. I want to make sure I'm working toward options in the future and that my kid will have. They will have enough people to point to that say, hey, that neighbor who is 80 years old and has built an off-grid cabin and doesn't use technology at all, I want to be like her at all. I want to be like her. How do I foster that now? Or if they say, I want to be like the guy in Silicon Valley that's making these products, how do I do that? I want them to have many, many, many options to draw from, but I want them to have a foundation where they know what it's like. On the other side and I think that's maybe what some of our kids are losing now is the, the ability to choose well, because they don't know the alternative. 

37:50 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
But also maybe because, on top of not knowing the alternative, not enough time is being spent talking about these things and and holding a space for them to, when they come out of the gaming or when they've watched something that you didn't join watching, then listening to it, sitting down. What was your favorite episode? Maybe you've seen 50 episodes of this anime. Which one was the best one? Do you want to show me one and have some real interest and talk to them about it and understand what it is about? 

38:32
I mean, most of the stories they get from series or movies are stories. So we talk about the stories and the meaning of those stories, the characters in the story. What's fascinating about this story? How is this story compared to that story and that story we read and that story? That's maybe a legend. So I think also another mistake that a lot of families is doing is to not value it and not give it attention. It's something, like you said before, that you would have a tendency to just hand the kids an ipad because you want to do something else, whereas I would always prefer to be with the kids. 

39:14
So if they have experienced something on their computer, I'm curious. I want to know what it is. I want to be part of it. 

39:20 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I just can't do five things at the same time all of it makes me think about the nuclear family and, as you said, you're building up the community around your, your family, we, we, the way we travel, we slow travel and we co-live right. Slow travel kind of where we take like a month somewhere, we somewhere, okay, sometimes it's not very slow. No, no, I would, I would, I would love to slow travel. 

39:51
Yeah, probably took one and a half, one and a month, uh, one and a half month in in fresno with some friends there and and and so their life, and another in kansas we sometimes slow travel, that's true, but what I find fascinating with our life, where we have both lived as a single unit in a house in Copenhagen and then we are lived as a single unit traveling, and then we have co-lived Every time there is the community around and we have a lot of the mixed-age teens, which can go from 12 to 20 something, and I see the devices becoming less and less important for them. Sometimes they meet around it and share something. There's something interesting. They want to share each other, but they're playing spike ball, they're playing ultimate frisbee, they're talking, laughing, being re-watching an enemy that they all saw five years ago, and then they discuss it and they have sorry. 

40:54
My point being is that that I actually think there is the. There's something about the way we live in these nuclear families one, one family on the run that makes it very easy for the algorithms to come in and fill that space where, if we had more of this community living or more open to this kind of community living, then I think it would be different. I remember, you know, being young and you went outside in the evening and found the kids there and played with. Being young and you went outside in the evening and found the kids there and played with and and something has happened, uh, during the, the many last years where. But I'm optimistic and think there's a change and and your work is a part of it, what we do is part of it. I think there's a change on the way there is. 

41:43 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
I think there's a lot of hope, and I think you hit the nail on the head is that it takes other people to do this with you. I think, specifically multi-generational people. I think that our kids need a world. They need not a template, but at least a menu option of what was it like to grow up in the 70s without a smartphone or without really Google or just any? You had an encyclopedia, you know, and that was your oyster and the. The ideas that came from that environment were no less amazing than the ones that are coming from the environments now, and so it's the resilience of people and that's, you know, that's the common thread, that's what we want our kids to be able to experience, is to to meet the world and know the world, and I think of how many times technology hijacks that, and so you're. 

42:39
One of one of our pillars is we. We have a program called co-opt where you can start a local chapter. The idea is, you know, one parent sort of signs on to experiment with a dumb phone. They can keep their iPhone but just turning all the internet and all the controls are on to move through the world and see what that's like. Another thing is just no social media for the whole family, um, so there's kind of these guide points, these things that we encourage people to find community centered around this idea. Um, but the the other big one is is that you bring people from every generation along from the ride. So, um, to your point, there is hope. We have a 800 chapters now, over 40 countries. 

43:27
People are cropping up and saying we do want this. You know, we want our kids to learn from other people and not from Siri. We want our kids to see the passion in this person's eyes when they talk about their lived experience, rather than just see the Google image that might be easier and faster to look up lived experience, rather than just see the Google image that might be easier and faster to look up. It's the slow way, you know to be fair, but you're creating this soft place to land for your kids. They're going to have so many voices in their life that are going to be different, yes, but also that allow context and that allow accountability and transparency and all of those things that technology can't do for our kids. And so you're right, there's so there's so much hope and there's so much action around this, and I feel very inspired for their future. I really do. 

44:20 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I once saw a T-shirt called I don't. It was a very unschoolish T-shirt saying I don't co-parent with the government, and sometimes I dream about making a t-shirt called I don't co-parent with YouTube or I don't co-parent with the algorithm. That could be it's hard you can make. 

44:42 - Cecilie Conrad (Host)
Yeah, yeah, I can. 

44:43 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
I can make that t-shirt on that. 

44:44 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Make it make the t-shirt I would wear that t-shirt Make it Make the t-shirt, I would wear that t-shirt. 

44:50 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Yeah, okay, we should kind of round up as we try to keep our episodes around these 45 minutes. 

45:06 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
So how can people find you, not stalk you, but where can they find your, your work and where can they get to know more? Yeah, uh, we yes, we're obviously not on social media, but our website is optoutfamilycom and um, on that site there are scripts. You know, I think a really tricky part for parents now is the school system. You know ed tech in schools and devices in schools, and so there are scripts that if you have a child in school you can download to talk to your administration about some options for an opt-out family. There are lots of screen free alternatives and swaps that people can make in their home. We have just a ton of resources and if they're not there, we want to make them. 

45:49
We just really want to help parents consider this as an option. You know it's I'm not saying it's the only way and it's the right way to. I mean, I think it's the right way of doing it, but, but I there's. There are many ways to live well, and so we want to make sure that all those barriers are removed so parents can walk into this decision with their eyes open and aren't just blindsided. By now we have a phone family and this is what we do, is we sit in our own corners and we're on our phones. So yeah, that website's optoutfamilycom. If there isn't a resource, we want to know and we want to make it, and we're just really here to help, it's free, there's no. There's no like sales funnel, it's just free. We're just here to help. 

46:32 - Jesper Conrad (Host)
Perfect. I will do my best to up more out, because I really hate all the times YouTube reinstalls itself with the magic from my own finger. It is controlling the hand, no, but it was inspiring and I will absolutely look into how I use media. Thanks a lot for your time, erin, it was a big pleasure. 

46:57 - Erin Loechner (Guest)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. 

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